What if a life support system could give back more resources than it uses? On this episode of Inflow, hosts Joe Arlotto and Dr. Jeff sit down with Travis Snyder, Regenerative Manager at the Seattle Aquarium, to talk about how one aquarium is pushing past sustainability toward regenerative operations, and how aquatic animal life support systems sit at the center of that effort.
Travis breaks down the Seattle Aquarium's regenerative goals, including a 25% reduction in both freshwater and seawater use by 2030, and the projects getting it there. He explains how on-site oxygen concentrators and oxygen saturation technology now deliver dissolved oxygen only to the habitats that need it, at about a quarter of the cost of delivered liquid oxygen. He walks through the all-electric Ocean Pavilion, which runs tropical habitats in a temperate climate without natural gas, using a sewer heat recovery reservoir, a tube and shell heat exchanger, heat recovery heat pumps, and heat gained from pumps and piping. The conversation also covers using VFD and SCADA data to cut pump energy, using rising tides to reduce pumping on the aquarium's natural seawater intake, backwashing freshwater filters with seawater, choosing HDPE over PVC, saving backwash water with activated filter media (AFM), and what climate change means for water temperature and dissolved oxygen in Puget Sound.
Travis also shares his unusual path to the role, from a renewable energy degree and wind farm internships to aquarist and LSS positions at Monterey Bay Aquarium, OdySea Aquarium, a cephalopod research facility in Woods Hole, the Greensboro Science Center, and Cheyenne Mountain Zoo. He closes with a look at new denitrification loops, a custom lanthanum chloride system that has brought phosphates down to 0.04 to 0.05 ppm, and his advice for anyone who wants to bring sustainability into LSS: be curious, stay humble, and learn from other industries.
Whether you're an LSS operator, designer, facilities manager, or zoo and aquarium leader working toward sustainability goals, this episode is full of practical ideas for cutting energy, water, and chemical use without compromising animal welfare.
This episode is sponsored by Aquatic Equipment and Design and MAT LSS. Thank you for supporting Inflow and the LSS community.
Inflow is the podcast where we discuss all things related to aquatic animal life support. Subscribe, leave a review, and find more episodes, show notes, and sponsor info at https://inflowlsspodcast.com/.
- (0:32) Why Sustainability Matters in LSS
- (3:11) Guest Introduction: Travis Snyder of the Seattle Aquarium
- (3:36) What Does "Regenerative" Mean?
- (5:04) Toward Carbon Neutral LSS: The Oxygen Concentrator Project
- (8:14) Delivered vs. On-Site Oxygen: The Cost Difference
- (9:45) Feedback Loops and Oxygen Saturation Technology
- (11:24) The Seattle Aquarium's Regenerative Goals
- (13:08) Reducing Freshwater Use Along the Salmon Journey
- (15:40) Backwashing Freshwater Filters with Seawater
- (18:36) Energy: The All-Electric Ocean Pavilion
- (20:37) Sewer Heat Recovery: Reusing Warm Discharge Water
- (23:40) Free Heat from Pumps and Piping
- (26:00) Heating and Chilling Loops in the Habitats
- (28:35) Using SCADA and Control System Data
- (29:52) VFDs, Amperage, and Pump Energy
- (31:35) Using the Tides to Save Pumping Energy
- (32:35) Keeping Equipment Rooms Cold: A Lesson from SeaWorld Abu Dhabi
- (33:55) Heat Recovery Heat Pumps
- (35:31) Tidal Head and Changing Seawater Demand
- (37:52) Climate Change, Water Temperature, and Dissolved Oxygen
- (40:51) Equipment Selection: HDPE vs. PVC
- (45:08) Activated Filter Media and Backwash Savings
- (48:14) Travis's Background: From Renewable Energy to Life Support
- (52:34) A Culture Shift Toward Regeneration
- (54:05) Designing for Future Goals and Denitrification
- (55:35) Phosphate Control with Lanthanum Chloride
- (59:54) A Future Panel on Lanthanum
- (1:00:14) Advice: Be Curious and Collaborate
- (1:02:33) Final Thoughts from Dr. Jeff
- (1:03:23) Outro and Sign-Off
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Greetings all.
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Joe Arlotto here with Dr. Jeff Kefaber.
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Welcome to InFlow, the podcast where we discuss all things related
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to aquatic animal life support.
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This show is sponsored by Aquatic Equipment and Design and Matt LSS.
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You can learn more about our sponsors by clicking on the sponsors page at
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inflowlsspodcast.com Sustainability.
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We talk a lot about it.
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It's, it's not a word we used so much 20, 30 years ago, but, you know, as we've
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talked on this podcast, LSS has evolved to not just being about, uh, a habitat being
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a place for our collection to live and to look nice, but it's become, you know,
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a, a, you know, the, the wor- natural resources have become more precious, so
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LSS needs to be something that can last without depleting the world, without
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depleting the world around us, right?
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So LSS, LSS is behind the scenes.
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You know, we, sometimes we kind of like that, but you could argue that between
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the cost of the equipment and the cost of running it, I mean, 24/7 pumps,
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energy, using fresh water, using salt water, paying for heating and chilling,
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you could argue that LSS is the most expensive and the most important part
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of the zoo or the aquarium habitat.
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That's a bold claim.
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What say you, Dr. Jeff?
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Oh, it certainly is.
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LSS, while behind the scenes, is responsible, uh, directly and
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indirectly for animal health and welfare, and at the end of the day,
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that's what we have to provide for the animals in the habitat itself.
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I think about, um, OPEX, operational expense, and, and, and our overall
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conservation messaging in our facilities.
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Uh, you know, we, we pay, we pay dearly to pump and move water around and to heat and
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chill, as you said, Joe, uh, the water.
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A- and so this, this becomes, uh, more intense as we move through,
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uh, the decades, and I, uh, you know, just chemical use or cutting
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back on oxidants, cutting back on ozone dosing, all of that plays into
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this, uh, whole, uh, conservation message and, and energy usage.
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That's true.
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That's, that's, that's excellent.
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That's an excellent point.
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You know, uh, uh, algae control, which, which we really could have a,
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an entire, uh, episode on, and, and how, how controlling algae can, can
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help us not do water changes, keep our, keep our water better longer.
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So our guest today is taking sustainability a step further.
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Travis Snyder from the Seattle Aquarium, welcome to Inflow.
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Thank you, Joe.
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Thank you, Dr. Jeff.
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It's great to be here.
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Well, you know, I did not use your title because I want you to tell us
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your title because this really is the focus of, uh, of this, of this
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show, and it's, it's quite unique.
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So what, what is your, what is your title at the aquarium?
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That's a great question, and it's a nice segue into this episode.
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So my title is Regenerative Manager, and I have the lucky job of holding the aquarium
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accountable to its sustainability goals, but what we like to call regenerative.
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So that's kind of a new term being used throughout many different
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industries, not just zoos and aquariums.
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But we believe that we can do better than just sustainable, so we wanna take it that
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next step further, which is regenerative.
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And to put it, put it simply, regenerative is we want to Give
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back more resources than we use.
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Yeah, makes sense.
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So sustainability, right, is to just not deplete or, or not
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take away, but regenerative, I learned a new word, regenerative,
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uh, say that five times fast.
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Regenerative, actually you are, you are contributing to, to,
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to the environment, correct?
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Yes, that is correct.
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We're, we're trying to evolve, basically.
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We, we learn, we wanna learn as much as we can and, you
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know, take those steps further.
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We've got a, a couple examples we can get into throughout this podcast where
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we know we have one practice that's working really well, and is there
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a way to do it better that gets us closer towards our regenerative goals?
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You know, Travis, we talk a lot about in the industry carbon neutral, can
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we take a whole LSS off the grid?
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Um, I, I argue that, that, that's, while that problem is difficult, um,
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are you giving any advanced thought to, uh, the technologies that would be
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required to just take a system and make it more carbon neutral, uh, less emission
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focused, and po- potentially slide the needle, uh, toward being off-grid?
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You know, that's an interesting question, and I've never actually
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heard it phrased that way, off-grid.
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You know, I'm, I'm trying to think about that and answer and it, it
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seems a little bit almost like, is there a way to make it less harmful,
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for, for lack of a better word.
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And, you know, it makes me think of our oxygen concentrator project.
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So we use seawater from Elliott Bay, Puget Sound, that has dissolved oxygen
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levels that fluctuate seasonally.
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It goes up to 100% in the summer when the algae's in bloom, and then when
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the algae goes away, our dissolved oxygen levels reach all the way down
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to 60%, and that's really, really low for the animals in our care.
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So for many years, we've been supplementing our seawater that we
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bring in from the sound with liquid oxygen, and we pump that directly into
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our pump house, and then that seawater is filled with oxygen to 100% and then
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gets distributed to the whole aquarium.
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We realized, is there a way we could be doing it better?
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Because not only does that seawater with 100% DO go to the fish and the
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invertebrates, it also goes to the mammal and bird habitats, which is not as
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important as the fish and invertebrates.
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So we have been working on a multi-year project, we are in year two of it, where
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we have localized oxygen concentrators, some AirSep TOPAS units, as well
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as some OSTs, is what we call them.
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That stands for oxygen saturation technology, where we are dissolving
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oxygen from a TOPAS into the seawater, and it's getting distributed strategically
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to certain habitats where it's only needed, rather than getting distributed
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throughout the whole aquarium Not only do we have a lot more control over
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that, it also reduces our deliveries because we had deliveries of oxygen
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being delivered every week, and we've been able to cut that back significantly
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because we can produce it on-site.
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And that's just one example of us trying to take it one step further.
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That's, that's an excellent example.
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For people who don't know how those oxygen concentrators work, you
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basically, you basically take the air in and, and you, you strip everything
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out of the air except the oxygen.
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And so it's, it's, you're basically producing it on-site, so you're
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not getting bottles, you're not having the trucks drive up.
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And so that in its, in its way, is, is very regenerative.
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Yes, and, and not just from a regenerative standpoint, but
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from a financial standpoint.
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You know, we're all nonprofits.
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We are all trying to save as much money as possible, and we did the math.
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Liter for liter, it costs us four times the amount for one liter of oxygen being
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delivered versus producing it on-site.
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Wow.
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And that may, that may not seem like a lot when, you know, your Topaz unit
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produces six to 10 liters a minute, but when you're using millions and
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millions of liters, that little bit of difference adds up pretty quickly.
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Yeah.
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And, uh, Travis, with these Topaz units, you know, you're looking at, at 79 to
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21%, you know, nitrogen, you're stripping the, the vast majority of that gas away.
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Uh, you know, and then whatever CO2 comes in or argon, the other, uh, small amount,
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uh, in air, uh, so all that goes away.
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And so what is the percent concentration of oxygen?
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It's not 100, but it's very close, right?
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Yeah, it's very close.
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You know, the AirSep will say it's anywhere between 95 and 99%.
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I used to operate these Topaz units at a previous facility that was
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pretty high in elevation, and our purity meter was always reading 99%.
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So I-- we're very confident we're getting the purity we need from
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them, and it's being reciprocated and showed through our feedback loop.
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So we have a DO sensor that's feeding back the DO of the supply back to a
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PLC, and then that PLC is modulating a valve to control how much gas
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is being dissolved into our OST.
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And I, I use that term OST, it's in a way similar to a spiess cone, but
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we don't have an exact spiess cone.
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Ours is slightly different, and it works in a similar fashion where the velocity
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of the water is changing While the gallons per minute is staying the same.
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So you're just getting more dissolution of that oxygen into the seawater.
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Yeah, because the vessel is not a constant diameter, right?
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It's like a funnel basically, and so that's why velocity changes,
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but GPM stays the same, correct?
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Yes, that, that's exactly it.
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In our, our-- The way we're using it is we're taking just a very small side
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stream of the water that's going to the fish and the habit- the fish habitats,
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and then we're injecting some really super saturated amount of seawater into
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that side stream, and then it basically balances out to 100% because we've
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got that DO meter downstream, which is then constantly feeding back to the
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PLC, adjusting it on a minute-by-minute basis because we're always pumping
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seawater 24/7, 365, and Elliott Bay will change on a hour-by-hour basis.
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Yeah, that's very interesting.
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Now, we got a little, I don't wanna call it sidetracked.
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We usually like work from the macro to the micro, but Dr. Jeff started with the
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micro and I'll-- I'm upset with him about that, but we gotta go back, Travis, okay?
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And that is describe the regenerative goals of the aquarium.
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I went to the website and it is quite extensive.
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You guys have, have got some very, very, uh, some very lofty goals, but
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go, go a little bit into what, what the aquarium wants to do and, and, um,
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you know, obviously they have somebody, you, directing this, but can you kind
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of break it down into, uh, maybe energy and, and water and, and the different
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areas that, that you're concentrating on?
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Yeah, I'm, I'm happy to get into that.
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So our regenerative plan has five different areas and seven different
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goals, and I would say for the sake of this podcast, there's three main
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goals that are related to this.
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One of them is energy, and the other two are related to water.
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So not just freshwater, but seawater.
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So we want to be able to reduce our freshwater consumption, whether
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it's freshwater or seawater, 25% by 2030 from a 2018 baseline.
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So we have much-- we, we have a lot of data going back many years on how much
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seawater and freshwater we've been using, so we know where we started and we know
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where we want to be, and we've got, we've got room for improvement, suffice to say.
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So let's just say freshwater.
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Um, what-- You know, you've got water coming in from the bay, you've got
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saltwater coming in, so where do you use your freshwater, and how are some sort
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of basic ideas to, to conserve that?
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Yeah, that's a great one, too.
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So our piers and our operations, w-we're coming up on our 50th
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anniversary, which is next year, so a lot of our operations were designed
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and built many, many years ago.
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And what we've learned over these years is you can always do it better.
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There's no one perfect way to do it.
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So regarding our freshwater, we have a, a salmon journey, as I like to
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call it, throughout our aquarium.
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We bring in salmon from, from eggs, they go to fry, they go to juvenile,
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and then they reach adulthood.
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And all throughout that journey, they use freshwater.
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So we know that we've got these different stages where we can
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implement more recirculation systems that will use more freshwater.
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Sorry, use less, less freshwater as a recirculating system.
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Sorry, I almost goofed on that one.
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But- … um, yeah, we, we know that we have these opportunities to use less
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freshwater, and it's, it's taking all of the knowledge and the information that
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other facilities, other recirculating aquaculture systems have been doing for
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years, and just sharing that knowledge, you know, implementing it here, taking the
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proven results, because we know we can.
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Great example.
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And I, and I think of RAS or recirculating aquaculture systems, it's sort of
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what you're, you're doing there with the, with the salmon grow out, right?
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Not at the moment.
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You know, we, we, we don't have a true recirculating
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aquaculture system for our salmon.
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It's where we want to be.
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You know, we know those systems will get us there, so we just need to start
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prioritizing them amongst all the different priorities of our facility,
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and those will help us reach our goals.
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But it, it's not just our f- our, our salmon habitat, there's other freshwater
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uses as well where we can make reductions, so we're exploring them as well.
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And the other one that we talked about was seawater.
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Um, very similar goal.
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We want a 25% reduction of our seawater by 2030 from a 2019 base level.
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So you've, uh, basically given yourself a 12 or 11, 12-year runway
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here to, to reach those goals.
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Um, back to freshwater real quick, what about, uh, backwashing sand filters?
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How is that, uh, becoming more sustainable?
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The way we use our freshwater for our habitats is mostly through our salmon
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program, but we also have our river otter system and our stream habitat, which are
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two, two s- um, two examples where we have recirculating systems on freshwater
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and, you know, they have their traditional sand filters, degas towers, uh, one even
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has a nice waterfall effect as well.
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But we don't have a way to capture any backwash water
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on those freshwater systems.
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There's no, there's no backwash recovery for the, for the freshwater.
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And on a saltwater system, do you backwash with saltwater, or
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do you backwash with freshwater?
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That's a good, that's a good question, and luckily, because we are located
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right along Puget Sound and Elliott Bay, we do use seawater to backwash
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not only our main seawater sand filters, but also our freshwater sand
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filters, and then we give them a q- a quick rinse just to remove any extra
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seawater that might still be in there.
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But because we have this resource right along with us, we use the seawater
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to backwash our freshwater filters.
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And, and what happens to that water?
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That water then goes to metro, or me- metro's kind of an older term,
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but that goes to the sewer system.
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Goes off to the city wastewater treatment facility, and then they
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take care of it for us from that end.
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For the majority of the systems, uh, you know, it, we have a, an older piers,
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older facility, so it really depends where that seawater was being used.
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For the, those two systems I mentioned, the stream habitat and our river otter
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habitat, that goes to the sewer system.
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But if it's seawater that hasn't come into contact with any of our habitats and we
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do backwash, then that water goes right back to Elliott Bay, 'cause it hasn't
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been in contact with any other habitat.
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And Travis, what's unique here, and I want to, uh, to emphasize
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this for our listeners, is that you are backwashing fresh water sand
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filters with Elliott Bay saltwater.
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Is that correct?
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Just want to make sure.
00:18:08
Yes, yes, that is correct.
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Just because we know we have that resource available to us, we know
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not everybody in the world can do that, but we know it benefits us.
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We don't have any negative effects from it, and it works out for the best.
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Yeah, and that's, and that's sustainable and regenerative in
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its, in its own way, correct?
00:18:27
Yes.
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Yes, definitely it is because, you know, we're reducing that freshwater.
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You know, freshwater has a cost, seawater has a cost, everything has a cost.
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It doesn't really matter what resource it is, so we always try to weigh
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what's the cost-benefit analysis of this resource versus that resource.
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And how about energy?
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Uh, what- Ah, yeah.
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What, uh, that's a good one.
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For an aquarium, that's a good one, especially an aquarium the size of yours.
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What, what do you, what are you doing to, to be, uh, regenerative
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on the, on, on the energy side?
00:18:59
Yeah.
00:18:59
So one of the best examples I can give of us getting closer to our
00:19:05
energy goal was our latest expansion, which is called Ocean Pavilion.
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Ocean Pavilion's our newest building.
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It's a little over 50 square feet.
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We've got 570-ish thousand gallons of seawater in there, and the reason that one
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helps us so much from an energy standpoint is really related to heating seawater.
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We ha- used to have some, some tropical habitats on Pier 59, and
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that seawater, which we'd bring in from Elliott Bay, had to be heated
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with some natural gas boilers.
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Natural gas is a very energy-intensive use.
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There is a lot of greenhouse gas associated with natural gas,
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but we knew we could do better.
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So with our newest expansion, Ocean Pavilion, we have tropical habitats in
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there as well, but all of that seawater in that building is heated with electricity.
00:20:00
There is no fossil fuel, natural gas being used in that building, so
00:20:04
that is one example of us reaching and getting closer to our goals.
00:20:08
And there's also some, some pretty interesting ways we move
00:20:12
energy around heat, heating and cooling in that building as well.
00:20:17
Yeah, and I know on our prior conversations, Travis, you've talked
00:20:20
about heat exchange and heat recovery, and I think you're going there, but I
00:20:26
just wanted to take you there, uh, where you use, uh, uh, you know, warm water or
00:20:33
colder water to sort of recover energy.
00:20:37
Yes, you're, you're definitely right, and if I get too deep into the weeds
00:20:41
on this, please interrupt me and let me know, but- We love weeds.
00:20:44
We love weeds.
00:20:45
Okay, great.
00:20:47
Yes.
00:20:47
Great.
00:20:47
Yes.
00:20:47
Because I br- I brought my bug spray, so we- … we are, we are good to go.
00:20:51
So with Ocean Pavilion, we have what Dr. Jeff referenced, is
00:20:55
a sewer heat recovery basin.
00:20:58
So we are bringing in water from Elliott Bay, which is about 50 degrees Fahrenheit.
00:21:05
And all of our habitats in Ocean Pavilion are all warm tropical water.
00:21:09
So we imagine anywhere between 76, 78 degrees roughly.
00:21:14
We have to heat that water, but we also know that water will eventually have
00:21:19
to leave that building, whether it's from a backwash, a, a gravel vac, um,
00:21:23
a water change, whatever the needs are, that water has to leave the habitats.
00:21:29
Well, it's already heated, right?
00:21:30
So what if we temporarily hold onto it, which is what we have
00:21:35
called our sewer reservoir.
00:21:37
This sewer reservoir holds a certain amount of volume.
00:21:40
I think it's about 15 gallons of seawater And we fill it up over the
00:21:46
course of a couple days, and then when we have to bring in new seawater to the
00:21:51
building, we send the water from the sewer basin through a heat exchanger,
00:21:57
a nice tube and shell heat exchanger.
00:22:00
At the same time, we are bringing in new water from Elliott Bay.
00:22:05
So depending on the flow rates with the heat exchanger, we can raise the
00:22:09
temperature about 10 to 12 degrees.
00:22:12
Obviously, it all depends on the flow rates that you're sending through it,
00:22:15
but we are essentially getting almost free energy, 10 to 12 degrees worth,
00:22:21
before that water makes it into its next filtration process in our intake basin.
00:22:27
And that simple tube and shell heat exchanger, it's probably my second
00:22:31
favorite piece of equipment in that building, minus our, our heat pumps that
00:22:35
we have on the roof, which are not just heat pumps, but heat recovery heat pumps.
00:22:40
So I'm a big fan of those as well.
00:22:42
But that sewer basin is a, another testament to this aquarium's
00:22:48
ability to walk the talk and be as regenerative as, as possible.
00:22:52
Yeah.
00:22:52
Just a, a little, a, I mean, this is-- You know, part of me wants to
00:22:56
say you're a genius, but the other, the other part of me wants to say this
00:23:00
is a no-brainer because you literally have warm water leaving your aquarium,
00:23:07
and you have cold water coming into your aquarium, and all you gotta do
00:23:11
is run that through a heat exchanger.
00:23:13
When he says tube and shell, all that is, is a big vessel with tubes
00:23:19
of one side of the water, let's say the cold water going through it, and
00:23:24
outside those tubes within the shell itself is the warm water leaving.
00:23:30
So literally just, it's passing each other with metal in between it
00:23:35
and, and it's, it's exchanging heat for, like, almost no effort at all.
00:23:40
It's, it's, it, it's a no-brainer.
00:23:43
Yeah.
00:23:43
And if we, if we really wanna get into it a little bit deeper, the reason I
00:23:48
call it almost free, free heating is what we're learning through the, the
00:23:54
years of operation of this building, and we're still learning new stuff every day,
00:23:59
is when that water passes through the heat exchanger, we get about 10 to 12
00:24:04
degrees, so it's up to 60, 62 degrees.
00:24:07
If we can then let it sit in our intake reservoir for a certain amount
00:24:12
of time, it will naturally gain heat.
00:24:15
We think it's coming from the friction of water passing through pipes, we
00:24:19
think it's from the motors going through the couplers into the impeller.
00:24:23
It's gaining heat all by itself, which is free heat in,
00:24:28
in the grand scheme of things.
00:24:30
I mean, yes, there is a cost for the motors and everything and the
00:24:33
friction, but if we can reduce the amount of time we need to use our--
00:24:38
the actual heat exchanger to heat it up to that 75, 77 degrees, then
00:24:43
that's just more energy we're saving.
00:24:46
Now, the thing that I get asked about all the time is, "Well, you have
00:24:50
tropical habitats in a temperate climate.
00:24:54
Don't you have to heat these habitats to 77 degrees?" And my answer is no.
00:25:00
So our habitats over in Ocean Pavilion, we are actually having
00:25:04
to put energy into them to keep them at their needed temperatures,
00:25:10
whether it's 77, 78, 79 degrees.
00:25:14
We are cooling those habitats with our cold water loop, and we're not actually
00:25:20
heating them Uh, yeah, Travis, my mind went crazy there when you talk about,
00:25:26
um, every GPM has a cost, of course.
00:25:29
We know that.
00:25:30
But if we can use those GPMs and, and that pumping, as you mentioned, uh, the
00:25:36
impeller and the motor and all of the frictional heating that goes on in the,
00:25:40
in the pipe network, uh, you actually find that y- to get from the 62 degrees
00:25:48
Fahrenheit to maybe 75, you can actually do that, uh, even though every GPM has
00:25:55
a cost, you're actually recouping that cost through heating, which is great.
00:26:00
And then the other thing is, y- you mentioned, uh, at the end of the
00:26:04
day, out in the habitats, you've got to actually chill with your chilled
00:26:09
water loop, and that, I'm assuming that's done with a normal, uh, like
00:26:14
plate and frame type heat exchanger?
00:26:17
So our largest habitats do have plate and frame heat exchangers, and they
00:26:24
are connected to not only our cold water loop that goes through the
00:26:27
building, but also our hot water loop.
00:26:29
So in the event we have to adjust the temperature up or down, the control
00:26:34
system can modulate either the incoming hot water loop or the cold water loop to
00:26:38
get them to their desired temperatures.
00:26:41
And, you know, you, Dr. Jeff, you touched on just that need to move the gallons
00:26:46
per minute and gaining that free heat.
00:26:49
You're doing that also at the same time you're filtering the water.
00:26:53
So not only do you have to filter the water through the protein skimmers, the
00:26:57
AFM that we have on the intake reservoir, all those things are needed, so we're
00:27:01
almost gaining a free secondary benefit by getting that free heat, knowing
00:27:07
first off we have to send it through the protein skimmer, have to send it
00:27:10
through the ozone, have to send it through the AFM, and now you just get
00:27:14
a little bit of that free heat next.
00:27:16
Yeah, y- you know, people don't really realize, I, I, I, you know, spent a,
00:27:21
a decade, uh, you know, with, uh, with PCA, Ardura now, you know, uh, designing
00:27:29
systems and our heat, our heat calcs, you know, a, a significant part of our heat
00:27:35
calcs is taking account for motor size.
00:27:40
You know, a, a 20 horse, you know, you got three 20 horse motors, you know, m- moving
00:27:46
the water around, that's a lot of heat.
00:27:48
I mean, we have to, when we do these calcs, we, um- You know,
00:27:54
we have to look at everything.
00:27:55
We have to look at the temperature inside, the amount of wind for, for, uh, for a,
00:28:01
uh, outdoor exhibit, uh, the amount of, of piping that is exposed to warm or cold
00:28:09
air, the shell, uh, size of the filter that's exposed to warm or cold air.
00:28:15
But I'll tell you, the pumps are a significant heat gain.
00:28:19
Significant.
00:28:22
Yeah.
00:28:22
They, they definitely are, and as I c- as I mentioned just a little
00:28:25
bit ago, we're still learning so much about this building.
00:28:29
You know, flow rates in one year compared to flow rates in another year.
00:28:33
What are the heat gains?
00:28:34
What are the heat losses?
00:28:35
You know, what if we could lower the air temperature in a room
00:28:40
a certain amount of degrees?
00:28:41
Will that reduce the amount of chilling we then have to do on the habitat itself?
00:28:47
Um- Exactly … you know, we're, we're in this beautiful day and age where
00:28:51
RCK, a BAS, all these SCADA systems are collecting so much data for us,
00:28:58
and we have this opportunity to find the trends, to be like, "Well, what
00:29:02
if I make a small little change here?
00:29:04
How much will it benefit me?
00:29:06
When will it benefit me, and what's then the cost to that?" So I, I'm a
00:29:10
huge advocate, if, if you can, if the resources allow, get the, get the SCADA
00:29:16
system, get your BAS, work with RCK.
00:29:19
You know, they're not the only name in the game, but they are wonderful people.
00:29:22
I love you, John.
00:29:23
I love all the people at RCK.
00:29:25
I'm sure they're listening to this.
00:29:26
But those systems will really help you in the long run.
00:29:30
Yeah, Travis, my mind was going there before you got there.
00:29:33
I just want to drill down on a couple of things with what you just said,
00:29:37
and that is, uh, VFDs, the data being collected, how that is communicated
00:29:46
to RCK or any automated control system that you may have out there.
00:29:52
Um, and, and tell our listeners what specifically can they be measuring
00:29:58
and monitoring, uh, with respect to energy usage where they can go to
00:30:04
their, their bosses and say, "Here's where we were, here's where we
00:30:09
are, and here's where we're going"?
00:30:13
Yeah, I love what you're getting at, Dr. Jeff, and that is a, a, a passion
00:30:18
of mine is, is being data-driven.
00:30:21
You know, really relying on the objective metrics to reach a common
00:30:27
goal, and VFDs are the, are the perfect, perfect example of that.
00:30:31
We have VFDs on our main seawater pumps, and those VFDs not only
00:30:36
capture the RPMs, but they also capture the hertz as well as the amps.
00:30:41
And one of the things I'm the most interested with my role is the amperage.
00:30:45
Um, these two pumps are 125-horsepower pumps connected to vertical turbine
00:30:52
Goulds pumps that are capable of producing 2 gallons a minute at their maximum.
00:30:57
We don't run them at that, but just to give you a sense of how large they are.
00:31:02
These two motors, these two pumps consume about a third of our electrical bill.
00:31:09
So if we can establish a baseline and look at, okay, this pump's
00:31:15
running at 1 RPMs, it's using this amount of hertz, this amount
00:31:20
of amps, and here's the result.
00:31:22
Here's the gallons per minute.
00:31:24
Okay.
00:31:25
Is there a way I can still achieve that same gallons per minute at
00:31:30
a different hertz, at a different RPMs, at a different amperage?
00:31:35
Those little savings, while still achieving the same goal,
00:31:39
will save in the long run.
00:31:42
We, we have plans to implement a new distribution header, which is going to
00:31:47
have some pressure-based controls that will feed back information to our VFDs and
00:31:53
be able to take advantage of the tides.
00:31:56
We are pretty fortunate to be on the, right over the water, so as the water
00:32:01
rises and falls 15, sometimes 18 feet, that changes the efficacy of those pumps.
00:32:09
So if those pumps can see the advantages of a rising tide, that's
00:32:14
less energy that we then have to spend to still get the same result.
00:32:19
You know, the same result is paramount.
00:32:21
We have to provide the best animal wellbeing for the animals.
00:32:26
Is there a way to do that while still achieving other goals?
00:32:30
Yeah, and sometimes, like you say, it's, it's already there.
00:32:35
Like, you, you, you honestly don't really-- You just have to
00:32:38
acknowledge it, and sometimes you don't have to do anything.
00:32:40
What I'm thinking about is, remember Dr. Jeff, we had these sh… In,
00:32:44
at SeaWorld Abu Dhabi, we had these huge equipment plant rooms, right?
00:32:49
And I think it was the, the, the, the penguin plant room.
00:32:56
It was so big and- The-- We were losing so much, uh, we were losing so much heat
00:33:04
to the room 'cause we were heat- we were heating the room 'cause we thought it
00:33:09
needed to be warmer to do work in there.
00:33:12
It wasn't even a public space.
00:33:13
It was just a… So we decided, we said, "Well, just keep the room cold," right?
00:33:19
We don't have to spend money heating it Because we're just losing that heat.
00:33:25
The, the, the pipes are gaining heat from the room, and then
00:33:29
we're chilling the exhibit more.
00:33:32
So we, so we tell the HVAC guys and the architects, "Just keep that
00:33:36
room cold. That's no big deal. We can go in there and work in there
00:33:38
when it's cold." And therefore we win on, we win, you know, two ways.
00:33:43
A- and actually, Joe, um, yeah, we decided to just keep it cold
00:33:47
because when you're, you've got 120 degree Fahrenheit days outside, y-
00:33:53
it's nice to go to a cold space.
00:33:55
That's right.
00:33:56
That's right.
00:33:57
It was enjoyable.
00:33:59
Yeah.
00:33:59
I, I, I love that example.
00:34:01
That's a, it's a great example, and the way Ocean Pavilion works
00:34:05
is, is in a similar fashion.
00:34:07
Um, we have these hot water loops and these cold water loops
00:34:10
going through the building.
00:34:12
These loops are not just connected to the HVAC system for the human
00:34:15
comfort, they're also tied directly to the life support systems.
00:34:19
So our heat pumps on the roof obviously connected to those loops as well.
00:34:23
They're heat recovery heat pumps, so as long as we can ha- balance this
00:34:28
heating demand and cooling demand, these heat pumps operate in the heat
00:34:33
recovery mode, so they're just swapping cooling and heat loads back and forth.
00:34:37
It's, it's the beauty of heat pumps.
00:34:40
Our mechanical firm did an amazing job with our design.
00:34:44
It was the same mechanical firm that did, uh, Point Defiance Zoos and
00:34:47
Aquariums' latest expansion, so there was a lot of lessons learned with
00:34:51
that building that got helped with our building, and I am just a huge,
00:34:56
huge advocate for heat recovery heat pumps when the conditions are right.
00:35:01
I, I know you can't use them in all climates depending on the refrigerant
00:35:05
you have, but the technology has come a long way, and heat pumps are… I
00:35:10
don't wanna sound too, uh, optimistic, but I think heat pumps are the future.
00:35:16
I think you, uh, are onto something there.
00:35:18
You know, we've got a finite, uh, system here of energy and, and if we
00:35:23
can move energy around, whether that's through heat pump technology or, or,
00:35:29
um, you know, gaining, uh, energy…
00:35:31
I wanna go back to this intertidal thing because I think this is
00:35:34
important for facilities that actually have natural seawater intakes, uh,
00:35:40
and pumping associated with that.
00:35:42
The, uh, you know, as the tide rises, um, and you end up, uh,
00:35:49
creating that, that, that's energy.
00:35:52
A rising tide is natural energy resource that you're harnessing.
00:35:58
Is that right?
00:36:01
Yes, that's correct.
00:36:02
Yep.
00:36:02
As the, as the tide rises, you know, I said I think we can get
00:36:06
up to 18 feet at our king tides.
00:36:09
That's a huge amount of rise, and that's just less physical weight that
00:36:15
these pumps have to physically lift and then send out to our systems.
00:36:21
And again, if we can reduce our pumps just, I don't know, 5% from
00:36:27
an RPM standpoint, that is going to be extrapolated in, and you
00:36:33
guys are gonna have to correct me.
00:36:34
I've, I've heard the term called a cubed function of energy return.
00:36:38
So you reduce your pump speed 5% RPMs, but you're actually reducing your
00:36:45
energy at a vastly larger amount.
00:36:49
Go ahead and correct me on that one.
00:36:51
No, I mean, but simply put, you're using head, right?
00:36:54
You're, you know, pumps pump from A head to A head, and if there's
00:36:59
no difference in those elevations, then they don't need to pump.
00:37:03
So Travis, you're basically saying, "When I've got head on the suction
00:37:06
side of my pump, I don't need my pump as much, and therefore I'm not gonna
00:37:10
use it as much and I'm gonna save energy." That, that's totally right.
00:37:13
Yeah.
00:37:14
Yes, yes.
00:37:14
You're absolutely right.
00:37:15
And to compound on that, we are a, a pretty unique facility, and I guess it's
00:37:20
fair to say every facility's unique, but our demands for seawater are changing.
00:37:25
They're, they're never static.
00:37:27
It's very different with Piers 59 and 60 being designed the way they are designed.
00:37:34
So because we have different demands, when you have less demand, hopefully our
00:37:41
design with a pressure feedback will then see, "Oh, I don't need to flow this much
00:37:46
seawater because this habitat over here has been turned off for whatever reason.
00:37:52
Now I can turn down my RPMs." Yeah.
00:37:55
Yeah.
00:37:56
Uh, this is, um, going in a direction Joe's probably not gonna want me
00:38:00
to go in, but, um, climate change.
00:38:03
We're, we're-- in San Diego, we're seeing Mission Bay, uh, having these
00:38:08
seasonal fluctuations like never before.
00:38:12
Do you see in Elliott Bay, Puget Sound, the same sort of, uh, um, effects,
00:38:18
uh, as a result of a changing climate?
00:38:21
W- yes, we are, and it's probably similar to many of the coastal
00:38:27
lines, is the temperature.
00:38:29
But with a temperature change that's different from your nor- normal
00:38:33
seasonal swings, that al- also affects the amount of dissolved oxygen.
00:38:38
So temperature affects so many things, pH, salinity, and as I mentioned with
00:38:44
our oxygen concentrator project, if these changes keep happening, then
00:38:49
our initial design for having to supplement seawater that's 55 degrees,
00:38:56
it's gonna require a different amount of oxygen produced when we now have
00:39:01
to take it when it's 57 degrees.
00:39:05
You know, just that little bit of temp- temperature difference is going
00:39:08
to use more resources, which is just more motivation to try to find d-
00:39:13
find ways to use less resources.
00:39:16
Yeah, I'm glad you went there, Travis.
00:39:18
Dissolved oxygen is a function of water temperature and water salinity.
00:39:24
And so warmer water holds less oxygen.
00:39:28
That creates a greater oxygen de- demand somewhere else.
00:39:33
Um, colder water retains more oxygen and creates a lesser
00:39:38
oxygen demand, uh, on the system.
00:39:41
Yep, and one thing w- we haven't seen to a significant effect yet is rain runoff.
00:39:51
So if the, the rainy seasons change more dramatically and we get more
00:39:55
runoff, then that's gonna do exactly what you said, change the salinity.
00:40:00
So not only does that directly affect the animals, but it affects
00:40:03
the dissolved oxygen that we then have to keep supplementing.
00:40:06
So we are going to have to make adjustments as needed, and so
00:40:11
far we've just seen smaller but still noticeable changes in the
00:40:16
temperature here in Elliott Bay.
00:40:18
Good point, Travis.
00:40:19
Um, cold, um, let, let's just say warmer Less salty water, right,
00:40:30
is going to have a different DO than cold, more salty water.
00:40:36
Yep.
00:40:37
Yep, it definitely will.
00:40:38
And at this point, all we can do is, I don't wanna say hope for the best, but,
00:40:44
you know, we are kind of at the mercy of what Puget Sound gives us, and we will,
00:40:49
we will make the adjustments as needed.
00:40:51
So we've talked about energy, we've talked about fresh water,
00:40:54
we've talked about salt water.
00:40:56
Tell me, um, we haven't really talked about this, I'm gonna
00:40:59
throw you maybe a curve.
00:41:00
How about equipment selection?
00:41:02
Like, do you choose certain equipment or certain parts of
00:41:07
your LSS to be more regenerative?
00:41:13
Yeah, that is a great, great question.
00:41:16
You know, in a, in a perfect world, if, if money was no object, I would
00:41:21
actually get rid of all PVC and make it polyethylene, but I know
00:41:26
that comes at a huge, huge cost.
00:41:29
So when situations arise, I do get to help collaborate and consult with not
00:41:36
just the LSS team, but our engineering team and our animal care team when it
00:41:40
comes time to making the best decisions.
00:41:43
Um, we haven't quite talked about my, my background, which is totally
00:41:46
fine if we wanna save some time.
00:41:48
But I used to be not just an aquarist, but also an LSS operator for many years.
00:41:55
So I have a lot of historical knowledge and experiences that I'm definitely
00:42:01
not the best, I don't think anyone's the best, but I have this ability to
00:42:06
just help people make the best informed decisions through experiences lived.
00:42:12
Yeah, and I, we get to your background and, and Joe can
00:42:16
kind of orchestrate that for us.
00:42:18
But I want, just something you said for our listeners, HDPE versus PVC.
00:42:26
Is there an ROI, return on investment, model on the CapEx side, if you're
00:42:32
gonna make an investment and it, and the investment costs more, uh,
00:42:37
and you look at, down the road, all of the OpEx savings you get, and
00:42:42
there's a payback in five years.
00:42:45
I mean, do you look at, do you analyze projects that way?
00:42:49
And, and in addition to that, great question 'cause I was gonna ask sort
00:42:53
of the same thing, but more simply put, when you say you're being more
00:42:59
regenerative if you use HDPE, why is that?
00:43:05
Yeah, I'll, um, I'll try to see if I can remember both questions.
00:43:08
I definitely remember the last question 'cause that one's more fresh in my mind.
00:43:11
Uh, so I apologize, Dr. Jeff, but I think I can get both
00:43:14
of these questions answered.
00:43:16
You know, polyethylene versus polyvinyl chloride, I think back
00:43:20
to the California Red List and which one of those is on there.
00:43:24
The California Red List has PVC, it doesn't have HDPE,
00:43:29
high-density polyethylene.
00:43:31
And, you know, there's a lot of new building certifications that are coming
00:43:36
out on how to build the most sustainable buildings, whether it's WELL, whether it's
00:43:40
LEED, or whether it's Living Futures, all these different types of certifications.
00:43:45
These associations are moving more towards polyethylene because they
00:43:50
know it's a more sustainable choice.
00:43:53
It's better when it comes to manufacturing the material, PVC versus polyethylene.
00:44:00
So in a perfect world, if we could make those choices, if we could
00:44:04
afford them, then polyethylene is the better route to go, but we
00:44:09
know it has a higher upfront cost.
00:44:11
We know it's not as easy to work with compared to PVC.
00:44:16
Like anything, there's a cost-benefit analysis, and you have to make do with the
00:44:22
best that you can Yeah, and I would just add with, uh, PVC and just g- all, all of
00:44:27
the, the high volatile organic compounds that are required, the VOCs associated
00:44:33
with gluing, uh, you know, PVC, you can, you can weld, uh, HDPE, uh, on site.
00:44:42
So there's, there's different things with respect to installation that,
00:44:47
that b- is more sustainable with HDPE.
00:44:51
Yeah, and it, it, it lasts longer, right, too, right?
00:44:55
So, so yeah, those, those are the points I was getting at, and, and
00:44:58
I appreciate you, uh, uh, sort of expounding on that because that is a
00:45:03
choice sometimes, you know, HDPE versus PVC, especially for underground piping.
00:45:08
So, um, one, one thing I, I heard you mention AFM, uh, Travis, and so that
00:45:15
could be a equipment sort of selection that's more regenerative, correct?
00:45:22
Oh, yes.
00:45:22
You, you're, you're absolutely right.
00:45:24
A- AFM is a dream when it comes to the amount of water needed
00:45:30
to backwash, and I promise you Dryden did not pay me to say that.
00:45:34
I just, I just know it from running these systems.
00:45:37
So yes, we use AFM in our intake reservoir of Ocean Pavilion.
00:45:43
You know, it's taking that seawater from Puget Sound, and then it's
00:45:47
one of the first filtration steps before it then gets distributed to
00:45:51
the rest of the building, and we see it with the pressure differential.
00:45:56
You know, these gauges are paramount.
00:45:59
I, I've pr- I'm almost positive it's been said on this podcast, but you
00:46:04
can't have too many gauges and you can't have too many valves, and I will
00:46:08
echo that for the rest of my life.
00:46:10
We, we need these feedback mechanisms, whether it's a flow meter or a pressure
00:46:15
gauge, to know the efficacy of it, and AFM is, it's working for us.
00:46:20
It's filtering the water to the needs we need, and it's using less water
00:46:25
than tr- a traditional sand filter.
00:46:27
And I don't say that to throw shade or say anything bad about sand filter.
00:46:32
Everything in this world, I'm pretty sure there's a common theme already to
00:46:36
this podcast, is there's a trade-off with the resources that you use.
00:46:40
So it's all about a balance between what do you need and what's available.
00:46:45
Yeah, and you said it earlier and you just inferred it again, is that be data-driven.
00:46:51
What, what we're, what you learn from activated glass or different types
00:46:55
of media, AFM, uh, is that your ba- backwash frequencies become less, and
00:47:01
your backwash water usage becomes less.
00:47:05
Uh, and that's real data that you can measure out in the field.
00:47:10
So, and, and we did that.
00:47:11
We did that.
00:47:12
Years ago, Jeff and I, I worked with SeaWorld and Jeff and, and Michael
00:47:17
Tucker there, and, and we did a test of AFM, and we found that exact thing.
00:47:21
We found that it, it, it-- We, we backwashed less and, and, and we
00:47:26
used less water when we backwashed.
00:47:27
We, we got-- The backwashes were, were n- no lo- they were less frequent, but
00:47:33
less time to actually do the backwash.
00:47:34
And I'm rushing here 'cause I, I, I do wanna get to, to, to your
00:47:39
history, uh, quickly, Travis.
00:47:41
Um, I'm rushing here, but, but that was… But like you say, that
00:47:45
was a certain type of system that, that worked well with the AFM.
00:47:50
Uh, you know, m- all of them might not.
00:47:53
It depends on what you need, what kind of system it is.
00:47:56
But, but you know, it's a It's, it's something to think about, the
00:48:01
activated glass media, and, um, it's, it's, uh, uh, you know, depending
00:48:07
on what your needs are, it's, it's something to consider to be, uh, more
00:48:12
sustainable and more regenerative.
00:48:14
Now, we've done this very opposite.
00:48:17
Congratulations, Travis.
00:48:18
You're our first guest who we've gotten to your history last.
00:48:22
So, but, but you took my thunder a little bit because what I wanted to say was,
00:48:28
it sounds like your job takes, um, not just some LSS knowledge, but some, some
00:48:39
animal knowledge and some renewable energy knowledge, and it-- so it, so
00:48:45
go quickly through your history because you, you must have an interesting one.
00:48:49
Yeah, that's, that's a really nice segue.
00:48:52
So I actually graduated college with a degree in renewable energy.
00:48:56
I got to do a couple internships on some wind turbine farms in
00:49:00
the middle of nowhere Nebraska.
00:49:03
Wow.
00:49:03
I l- I loved it.
00:49:04
It was incredible.
00:49:05
I, I am a huge advocate for them, and I don't think I'll ever work at one.
00:49:10
I, I believe in, I believe in them.
00:49:12
I support w- support them, but that is a, uh, a lifetime ago.
00:49:17
Uh, so yeah, that was back in 2014, I graduated, and then I actually started my
00:49:24
career at zoos and aquariums, volunteering as an aquarist at the Monterey Bay
00:49:29
Aquarium back in 2015, and that led to a job actually at the Monterey Bay
00:49:35
Aquarium as an assistant aquarist.
00:49:37
That was an incredible opportunity.
00:49:39
I'm so grateful they gave me that because it really just opened my
00:49:43
eyes to taking care of animals in an aquarium is unbelievable.
00:49:49
Still is.
00:49:50
So then I moved on from there to OdySea Aquarium in 2016 and helped open that
00:49:57
facility from the construction days until two years later, and then I left
00:50:03
there to work at a research facility in Woods Hole, Massachusetts, working
00:50:08
with cephalopods, and then that's kind of where I started to transition from
00:50:13
direct animal care to life support.
00:50:16
They were looking for somebody who could help manage their animal needs
00:50:21
as well as start to integrate open systems to small scale closed life
00:50:26
support systems with very sensible, sensitive animals, which cephalopods are.
00:50:31
So that gave me a nice segue into just how crucial and how important
00:50:36
is life support for these animals.
00:50:38
Then I moved on to a zoo, aquarium, and museum called the Greensboro Science
00:50:45
Center in North Carolina, and I got to help them with their expansion on their
00:50:51
zoo side of things while still being an aquarist, but also getting the opportunity
00:50:56
to work half of my job as life support.
00:51:00
I did that for a couple more years, and then I moved on to what I like to call
00:51:06
large scale life support at the Cheyenne Mountain Zoo in Colorado Springs, working
00:51:11
on filtration for hippos and elephants, which is a whole other world, but it gave
00:51:18
me the opportunity to be able to stand up and walk through a drum filter, and
00:51:23
that's how, that's how big they are, and just a, a testament to what is the scale
00:51:30
of life support for large scale mammals.
00:51:33
It's, it's a whole other world, but it was amazing.
00:51:36
And then I left there to pursue the Seattle Aquarium, and the main
00:51:41
reason that drove me here was because of their sustainability goals and
00:51:46
where they want to be, this vision to be as regenerative as possible.
00:51:51
So learning about what they were doing, their expansion with Ocean Bu-
00:51:54
Pavilion, all-electric building in a temperate climate, no natural gas.
00:51:59
You know, those were some of the main reasons that drove me to
00:52:03
Seattle, and here I am today.
00:52:05
Yeah, you know, you said, you said previously, you know, all, all facilities
00:52:12
are unique, and they are because of course their location, what kind of,
00:52:18
uh, you know, water is available to them, if it is available to them.
00:52:22
So they are unique, but But Seattle's not just unique because it sits in a certain
00:52:31
place and is in a certain building.
00:52:34
I mean, you guys had goals.
00:52:39
Like, you-- They went into this expansion saying, "We want to be not
00:52:44
just sustainable, but beyond." Correct?
00:52:47
I mean, that's a, that's a way of thinking.
00:52:49
It is.
00:52:50
It, it's a way of thinking.
00:52:52
It's a, it's a mentality shift.
00:52:54
It's a, it's a culture change.
00:52:56
It's, it's going all in on it.
00:52:59
You know, we, we have this strategic plan to be as regenerative as possible.
00:53:04
And, you know, we've been talking about three of our seven goals.
00:53:08
We have four other goals that are not related to life support, but
00:53:11
still revolve around sustainability, being regenerative, and using your
00:53:17
resources as strategically as possible.
00:53:20
What we've been learning is life support is so closely tied to our regenerative
00:53:26
goals that it was almost fortuitous for me to move from the life support
00:53:34
role that I was in when I first moved to the Seattle Aquarium into this
00:53:38
regenerative program manager role.
00:53:40
We know, we've been saying it a lot, all these things use resources, so how can we
00:53:46
use the past experiences, the knowledge, to get there as close as we can?
00:53:51
What I think's interesting here is it, i- is design, right?
00:53:54
The architect, the LSS designer, uh, but just the general facilities of
00:54:00
the building, HVAC, everything else, lighting systems, um, all of that.
00:54:05
If you go into a, a new greenfield p- facility project in design, you can set
00:54:11
in, uh, you know, goals that say, "By 2030, we're gonna be here, and here's,
00:54:18
here's what we do in our design choices to ensure we have our best shot at
00:54:25
making that goal." Is that right, Travis?
00:54:27
Yes.
00:54:28
You, you're exactly right.
00:54:29
You know, it's that forward future mentality, that thinking about, "Here
00:54:33
we are now, here's where we want to be.
00:54:36
Let's not plan for where we are today, the problems today.
00:54:40
Let's plan for where we want to be." So one of those other examples
00:54:44
that's related to Ocean Pavilion and reducing that seawater as much
00:54:47
as possible is those closed systems have denitrification on them.
00:54:52
You know, our largest systems have denit loops, and we are In like in the
00:54:59
next couple days, depending on when this recording goes live, we will be
00:55:03
turning on one of those denitrification loops for one of our habitats.
00:55:07
You know, this is going to help us reach the parameters of nitrates we need to
00:55:13
provide the best animal well-being, which is paramount, and we can still achieve
00:55:19
our sustainability goals at the same time.
00:55:21
It's this perfect win-win for everybody.
00:55:25
Wow.
00:55:26
You know, um, um I'm kicking myself a little bit that we're not
00:55:30
talking more about denitrification and what that system looks like,
00:55:33
but we do have to wrap this up.
00:55:35
But very quickly, along with denitrification, you're also, um,
00:55:40
you're also controlling algae, right?
00:55:42
You're, you're lowering your phosphates very quickly.
00:55:45
Just, just go through what that looks like and, and we're gonna
00:55:49
have you back on and talk about this more, more in depth because this is,
00:55:53
this is really interesting and key.
00:55:55
Yeah, and I, I'm, I'm happy to get into this.
00:55:57
I, I know we talked about getting into the weeds, so th- this is, this
00:56:00
is where my jam is, 'cause again- … it's that win-win for everybody.
00:56:04
Um, we are using lanthanum chloride on two of our systems at the moment, and that is
00:56:11
another testament to reducing the amount of water changes and backwashes you need
00:56:16
to get the phosphates down to the floor.
00:56:19
I mean, we were starting with phosphates at levels higher than
00:56:23
you would ever want, and now our phosphate levels are .04, .05 PPM.
00:56:30
Wow.
00:56:30
Wow.
00:56:31
They're, they're exactly where they need to be.
00:56:33
And we knew that, is there a way we can do it better than the design?
00:56:41
And the design works.
00:56:43
We, we know the design works.
00:56:44
The design came from PCA Ardura.
00:56:47
We really enjoyed working with them.
00:56:48
They came up with an amazing design that has proven throughout zoos and
00:56:52
aquariums, and we are asking ourselves, "Is there another way to do it?"
00:56:57
So we came up with our own design.
00:56:59
We came up with a CoFlow static mixer right downstream of the injection point
00:57:06
of the habitat water with the lanthanum.
00:57:09
It goes through this static mixer, then it actually goes into an old contact
00:57:13
chamber that we had laying around that was gonna go to the landfill, but we
00:57:17
took it back and we were able to use it, so less waste going to the landfill.
00:57:21
And it's actually giving us so many minutes.
00:57:25
I think we get about four and a half minutes of contact time in this
00:57:30
contact chamber with the CoFlow static mixer before it goes to the sand
00:57:34
filter to catch all that precipitate.
00:57:36
We designed it in a way with that future forward thinking that you mentioned,
00:57:41
so if we have to ramp up the flow rate, if we can't just increase the lanthanum
00:57:45
concentration, we can just increase the turnover rate in that loop, still
00:57:50
providing the best animal cares that's needed, and reducing the backwashes,
00:57:56
reducing the energy that's needed.
00:57:58
Yeah, this is probably more, uh, uh, uh, Dr. Jeff is gonna wanna
00:58:02
get in on this too, but, but aren't you flocking in the vessel?
00:58:06
Aren't you having a problem actually flocking when it's contacting in the
00:58:12
vessel before it gets to the filter?
00:58:14
That is a great question, and TBD.
00:58:18
That, that's where you're gonna have me on next.
00:58:20
Okay.
00:58:20
And, and we'll, we'll keep you posted.
00:58:21
You know, what we're seeing in the-- We actually bought a
00:58:24
co-flow mixer that's clear PVC so we could see what's happening.
00:58:28
We're seeing this, this grazing effect or, um, almost this white
00:58:32
cloudiness on the inside of it, but it's not impeding the flow.
00:58:37
We're still able to maintain the flow as we need.
00:58:41
This system's been running for, oh gosh, maybe like nine months, 10
00:58:46
months now, something like that.
00:58:48
So we're not seeing a change in the flow.
00:58:51
We're not seeing a change in how the pump's operating, so we're still using
00:58:54
the same amount of energy, and our phosphates are right where we want them.
00:58:58
Well, you're dosing it correctly.
00:59:00
Well, that, that's a credit to our, our, our water quality team.
00:59:03
A big shout-out to Hannah Muhithar and the water quality team for going through the
00:59:08
calculations and getting us there because she was, she was paramount in that.
00:59:13
Yeah, this is a topic for another hour, right?
00:59:15
I mean, but, uh, nitrates, phosphate control, lanthanum use, you know, I've
00:59:20
got ideas for actually doing lanthanum recovery because, you know, lanthanum
00:59:25
chloride, which is the source, uh, become-- that, that comes with a cost.
00:59:30
And, and a lot of lanthanum is, uh, out of China.
00:59:34
So that's just one example of a, of a precious resource that,
00:59:39
um, you kinda wanna hold onto.
00:59:42
Anyway, that's another time.
00:59:44
Well, though, um, this is, this, this is good though because w-we're-- we
00:59:48
like new ideas for this podcast, right?
00:59:50
And so I have one, and that is to get you, Travis, back.
00:59:54
Dr. Jeff, well, you're, you're a lanthanum expert, but maybe we can find some people
00:59:59
or the people listening, get ahold of me.
01:00:01
If you're using lanthanum, okay, and you are reducing your phosphates
01:00:07
and you have some stories to tell, let's have a panel on this podcast.
01:00:11
Let's talk about it for an hour.
01:00:12
I think it's a, a great idea.
01:00:14
But we gotta wrap this up.
01:00:16
Last question, Travis.
01:00:19
What would be your message, advice to young people or to anybody starting
01:00:23
out in the LSS world who, who has sort of this passion for sustainability,
01:00:32
regenerative systems, uh, you know, what would be your, your, your golden nugget?
01:00:39
Ooh, I love this question, and I, I was kind of, um, anticipating this, so,
01:00:43
like, I, I have an answer in the back of my mind, but now I kinda wanna pivot.
01:00:48
So this one's gonna be a little off the cuff, but I'm still,
01:00:50
I still like this answer.
01:00:52
I would say my best piece of advice is to be curious, be open to other
01:01:00
people's opinions and experiences.
01:01:03
You know, there is no one expert.
01:01:06
It, it doesn't matter who you are, you always have something new to learn.
01:01:12
We, as a zoo and aquarium industry, are always taking cues from other people,
01:01:18
whether it's aquaculture systems, whether it's wastewater treatment.
01:01:22
I'm pretty sure lanthanum chloride came from a wastewater treatment facility
01:01:26
before it came to zoos and aquariums.
01:01:27
Uh, don't quote me 100%, but I think so.
01:01:30
So it, it's this ability to be humbled knowing that you don't know everything.
01:01:38
There is something to be gained by other people.
01:01:41
It takes a collaborative effort.
01:01:43
You know, we are on this one boat together, and it's going to take
01:01:48
everybody working together to reach the goals that we need, you know?
01:01:52
So that, that's, that's my, that's my answer.
01:01:54
I like that one.
01:01:55
You know, well, well said, and I'll, I'll, I'm gonna, you know, Dr. Jeff will
01:02:00
get the last word here, but, but I do wanna say that for a, for an aquarium
01:02:05
who's doing very unique and, and novel things, what you say is so true.
01:02:13
You might be leading the way, but you are certainly asking a lot of questions and
01:02:18
learning from a lot of other facilities.
01:02:20
So you're cer- your head is not in the sand, for sure, which
01:02:23
is a testament really to you and, and the Seattle Aquarium.
01:02:27
Last word, Dr. Jeff.
01:02:29
Yeah.
01:02:29
Something Travis said, be curious.
01:02:31
I say this on almost every show, right?
01:02:33
As my last word.
01:02:34
Be curious, be creative, be open.
01:02:37
Uh, there are many bodies of knowledge that exist out there today, whether
01:02:43
that's aquaculture, wastewater treatment, water treatment in general, uh, the, the
01:02:48
whole environmental engineering industry.
01:02:50
There are technologies and pieces of equipment that
01:02:53
come along with all of that.
01:02:55
So, um, do a lot of reading, uh, be curious, creative, and, uh,
01:03:02
draw on all, all that body of knowledge that is available to us.
01:03:07
It's not just an internet search.
01:03:09
It, it is about communicating with one another and other humans.
01:03:15
I like it.
01:03:16
Thank you, Travis Yes.
01:03:18
Thank, thank you Dr. Jeff.
01:03:19
Thank you, Joe.
01:03:20
It was a pleasure to be on this podcast, and I, I look forward to the future.
01:03:23
Thank you, Travis.
01:03:25
All right.
01:03:25
Thanks to Travis Snyder, and thanks to Matt LSS and AED for sponsoring this show.
01:03:31
And thank you all for listening to Info.
01:03:33
Be sure to subscribe and leave us a review, and don't forget,
01:03:35
you can always stay connected with us at infolsspodcast.com