Ep 53 - Raising the Standard: Allen McDowell on AZA Accreditation and Life Support

[00:00:05] Greetings all, Joe Arlotto here with Dr. Jeff Kefaber. Welcome to Inflow, the podcast where we discuss all things related to aquatic animal life support. The show is sponsored by Integrated Aqua Systems and Asahi Valves. You can learn more about our sponsors by clicking on the sponsors page at inflowlsspodcast.com.

[00:00:29] So we talk a lot about how LSS has grown over the years and it's become more technical and it's something that zoos and aquariums see as a necessary skill as opposed to maybe just having a facility staff taking care of the LSS.

[00:00:49] But with this advancement comes standards like ALSO certification program where we have standards that operators must achieve to be a level one, two or three operator. Equipment obviously has standards like our sponsors today Sam Cortland at Integrated Aqua and Chris Kane at Asahi.

[00:01:13] They build, you know, skid systems or manufacture valves with very strict standards. But what about exhibit or system or facility standards? We do have an organization, the AZA, the Association of Zoos and Aquariums. And this organization is dedicated to the advancement of zoos and aquariums in the areas of conservation, education, science, recreation, and science.

[00:01:43] And they have some standards, right? Dr. Jeff, you're familiar with this, right? I'm very familiar. We as a company, SeaWorld, just went through three of these accreditations this past year. SeaWorld Orlando, Discovery Cove, SeaWorld San Diego.

[00:02:01] And one thing I noticed in helping the parks, the marine parks through this process was that there is a more of an attention toward water chemistry, water quality, nitrates to name something, a parameter. There is also the LSS. And all of what we do is associated with animal health and welfare.

[00:02:30] And so when it comes to the TAGs, the taxon advisory groups, that they are starting to extend out into what makes an animal happy, what makes it well, what makes it, gives it quality of life. And a lot of that is the water it lives in. Joe, I'm excited for this show. I'm excited for our guests. And I'll pass it back to you.

[00:02:57] Yeah, that's interesting because I've had a few experiences with AZA and accreditation, mostly, you see, but back then, mostly dealing with exhibit spaces like haul-out spaces for sea lions or coliform testing for marine mammals. So, but they weren't really related to the LSS. So our guest today is Alan McDowell, water quality manager at Discovery Cove in Orlando.

[00:03:25] And he has experience with many things, one of them being AZA and these animal and exhibit standards. So, Alan, welcome to Inflow. Well, thank you so much. It is a pleasure to be here today. And this is a really interesting topic and something I'm very passionate about and think it's something that, you know, from the LSS side of things that we should be thinking about maybe a little bit differently than maybe we historically have. Definitely.

[00:03:52] And I, like I said, way back when I was always a little bit, now this is, you know, early, mid 90s. I was always sort of amazed that there weren't that many standards for LSS in terms of AZA accreditation. But before we get to that, let's talk about you, Alan. Where are you from? You know, where'd you grow up and how did you get into the LSS world? Yeah, I'll try to do the super short version of this.

[00:04:20] So, grew up in Tennessee, so very landlocked state. We really, when I was growing up, we didn't really have aquariums, but was very fortunate that our family went down to Disney quite a bit growing up. And so, got to go to Epcot and go to the Living Seas a lot growing up. And that was just one of my favorite places in the world. Parents would literally drop me off there in the morning and then pick me back up in the afternoon because all I wanted to do was just, you know, engage with all the stuff that was available there at the Living Seas.

[00:04:49] And so, that led me to wanting to learn more about that and going with my education, growing more in that field. Alan, let me interject there because we share that common bond. We were both at the Living Seas at various parts of our career.

[00:05:05] And one thing, you know, 6.2 million gallon system, probably 5.7 or 8 in the habitat itself, if you don't count all the filters and the pipes and the basins out back. But this was, at that time, the largest aquarium or nearly the largest aquarium in the world by my measure, right? Right. Yeah, absolutely it was.

[00:05:32] And it was that kind of overwhelming feeling of being there and then just seeing that much water and seeing all the animals that are there. That was a very overwhelming experience for me that led me to say, this is what I want to do. This is exciting. Got me caring about marine life. That's why it's like, okay, this is what I want to do. Because it led me to being able to go scuba diving and starting to appreciate, you know, nature that way, but also was recognizing that not everybody has that chance to go out and do that.

[00:06:01] So the best way to people experience this outside of kind of going, you know, diving out in the ocean is to bring the ocean to them. And seeing how impactful that was on me and realizing that I could play a part in that. And so as soon as I got through my schooling, I was looking to kind of get back to Disney. And that's, Jeff, that's when I started my career working there.

[00:06:23] And it's been a little over 10 years with Disney doing a variety of things with the Living Seas and some of the other projects they had going on there. So you, so Alan, you went to school studying biology or study, what exactly did you study? Yeah, my path took me more through the biology route with a emphasis on, on marine science.

[00:06:48] And that led me to kind of into a master's program that was actually specifically dedicated for aquarium science. And so that, that program covered everything, whether it was the biology, but also it was getting into the life support, getting into the educational kind of components and conservation elements. Yeah, that's interesting, Alan, because I'm a PhD chemist, right? But I call myself a life support system scientist.

[00:07:17] Now, you actually had a program that you went through in aquarium science at a master's level. And from what I understand from prior conversations with you, it was a kind of a finite program. It lasted for a while, right? Yeah, it wasn't around too long.

[00:07:38] It was around for a handful of years and it was, it was a great program that was in a collaborative effort between the University of Maryland and the National Academy of Baltimore. And there were several people that came out of that program during that time. And most of them did do fairly well, kind of moving into full-time role within the field.

[00:07:58] So it was exciting because it wasn't just looking at, say, the biology and science of it, but it also was exposing the people to, you know, the business side of it as well, as far as how does this, how do you make this work and sustainable? So how, so when you finish that program, how do you get a job at an aquarium?

[00:08:19] I mean, is it just like you just scour the AZA job openings and start applying for it or, or is there, or they're actually avenues through your program that lead you into the aquarium world? Well, what was, one of the unique things about that program was that it actually required you to go have an internship, go work an internship at some established facility. And that could be anywhere.

[00:08:46] It didn't necessarily have to be any one place, but just that you had to go and secure an internship and go, go to that facility and work. And so for fortunately I was able to do my internship at the seas, the place that was such a amazing experience for me. And then after I finished on my program, then I was able to basically get back on full time with the seas partially because of my experience working there and being able to kind of demonstrate, you know, what I could offer them. Perfect.

[00:09:16] So that that's perfect for you. I mean, having grown up going there, I mean, so you move right in there after your internship, after you graduate. And what are you there? Are you a scientist? Are you an aquarist? What, what was your job there? I was an aquarist and I was, uh, at the time it was called associate aquarist. So it's kind of like that entry level aquarist position. Fortunately it was full time. So that was nice because that's not something that's always available as starting out in our field.

[00:09:46] So that was nice and was able to, you know, very quickly just start moving up the ladder there. And they just offered me a lot of opportunities. And that was, it was just a very fortunate experience. And I've always considered it kind of my aquarium hole. Yeah. Alan, uh, one thing I think about is that sometimes there's a tendency for us to live in our silos, right? There's the LSS operators. There are the aquarists.

[00:10:14] There's the marine mammal trainers. And one thing I think about is how the communication and the cross training occurs more now than it did a decade or two ago. So can you comment? You obviously have LSS in your background. You have LSS currently in your, in your role at SeaWorld or Discovery Cove.

[00:10:39] And, and so can you comment on the importance of the cross communication efforts between the two silos? Yeah. And, and the silos tend to happen, particularly at larger facilities, as far as when you have much larger facilities, you get a lot more siloed inside your different departments.

[00:11:00] And I will say that's a challenge and to still to this day with that, and that we do need to make significant efforts to kind of step outside of those. And for me at Disney, I, you know, we had separate life support teams. We had a separate water chemistry team. We had a separate automation team. And so these were all separate teams that I didn't necessarily work with on a daily basis. That's part of my job, but it was something that I was recognized very quickly.

[00:11:28] It was like, oh, this is, these are the people that do all this other stuff that I just kind of almost take for granted. And it was important to me to be deliberate about interacting with those other departments and learning more about what they were doing.

[00:11:43] And it got to the point that I felt like that was being very productive because I would be able to come out of working in the habitat and go talk to our chemist and say, hey, I'm seeing some unusual behavior out of our shark species or something like that. And then he could kind of go around and start looking at some of the stuff that they look at and be able to say, oh yeah, we're starting to see, you know, a slight uptick in ORPs or something like that.

[00:12:08] And it was those types of interactions that was like, oh, this is where this really works is when you have the synergistic effect of everybody kind of bringing all these elements together to provide better care for the animals. And so that's why it's important as far as for an LSS person to understand what an aquarist or marine mammal trainer is doing and vice versa.

[00:12:33] And the same with water chemistry folks, same with the automation folks, that it's important that everybody understands all those different roles and what they can bring to that, that group effort to approve the care of what we're providing. Yeah, which is interesting because you're right. As you move up and as you go to a bigger facility, these are bigger departments on their own.

[00:12:55] And so they live in their own world sometime and it's hard to cross communicate, but also you as a manager, you then are in charge of maybe a couple of those silos. So you have to facilitate that and having worked and done it and communicated, you can do that more easily. It seems like you are in that type of role.

[00:13:22] And when you do get to those leadership positions, you're absolutely forced to get outside your silo and kind of work, work across those, those departments and those efforts. And as a manager, it is something that you have more control over and you can better help and support. You know, we were talking about the also program with the LSS operators and the water quality operators.

[00:13:46] And that was something that, you know, supervising a previous team of primarily aquarist that they didn't have a lot of experience on the LSS side. And so we, we set it up so that they could go through that program. And some of them were very reluctant at first. It's like, oh, that's not really what I, it's not really what I do. But having them go through that program really showed them how integral those, those things are to what they are doing. Yeah.

[00:14:16] And Alan, I think about the small, more boutique, jewel type systems, right? That are small, but they might have a fractionator on them. They might, they have a sump, they have a pump. They have the components of an LSS on a large, that we deal with every day on a larger volume scale.

[00:14:38] And so we're finding, at least I, I'm observing through also that aquarists are starting to, you know, participate and become certified. Yeah, I've seen the same.

[00:14:53] And I, I think once they can kind of step through that door a bit and see kind of what's on the other side and see how, oh, this is going to help me understand better how my system is running and why I do, you know, what, what I do as far as cleaning this protein skimmer, changing this filter. And understanding those concepts and being able to take the next step and say, how do I do this better? What are some things I can do? Can I change it to a different kind of filter?

[00:15:20] Can I incorporate some other type of filtration that I'm not doing right now? That's when I really feel like it starts clicking from that side of things. Okay. So, so you're at, you're at Disney and this is going to be sort of a multi-level question because I want to get to your involvement with AZA.

[00:15:40] And so describe what you did after Disney and how you decided to be part of AZA and how you were part of AZA, whether it was the inspector or accreditation process or, you know, talk about that a little bit. Yeah. So after leaving Disney, I worked through a couple of different other facilities through that time and, and kind of stepping up through some of the management rakes through those facilities.

[00:16:07] And as you're kind of getting more into those levels, there's more opportunity and there's more inquiries too about being involved in those, those other elements that are part of AZA. And it's one of those that it typically, you know, starting to get involved in AZA typically requires a lot of extra time outside of kind of your, you know, your nine to five.

[00:16:30] And so are you willing to kind of commit to taking on a lot of those, a lot of that extra time that may not be normally included in what your day job is. And also that you have an organization facility that's supportive of you being involved in that. And I think that's a key element and that's rich required actually, as far as when, when you apply to be on a committee or something like that, you have to have kind of a letter of support from your facility saying, yes, we are supportive of him being a part of this.

[00:16:58] And how, Alan, did you evolve after Disney through your career? I vaguely remember and correct me if I'm wrong. North Carolina Aquarium was a key step in your career path, correct? Yeah, that's correct. I was there for a little over seven years as the associate aquarium director to the North Carolina Aquarium on Roanoke Island.

[00:17:23] And that was, that was a great experience that because that facility is part of a system of aquariums and facilities. So there are, there are three aquariums and then also kind of a satellite pier that, that also has animals and exhibits and education going on too.

[00:17:38] So that facility really was fantastic to kind of learn how an organization like that operates with multiple facilities, all with a common goal and mission, but at the same time being adaptable to kind of their own set of circumstances, whether it is where they are, you know, the types of facilities they have, the staffing they have. And that was, that was great experience for that.

[00:18:03] So when you, when you want to get involved in AZA, you said you were part of a committee. What does that mean? You're a committee for a particular species. You're a committee for a particular way that AZA does things. Like what does that mean? And for our listeners, how do they go about getting involved in that? And why, what did you want out of it?

[00:18:29] Well, my path may be a little different as far as the why, but as far as actually how you do it, as far as there are multiple committees that are part of AZA. And because AZA is, is built on the concept that we are using experts in the field to help guide where we're going and, and what we need to be concerned about.

[00:18:51] And so you need those people to be coming from AZA membership, to be able to say, yes, I'm willing to kind of contribute my expertise and knowledge to that. And, and there's multiple committees, whether it's, there's, you know, there's an accreditation commission that obviously does all the accreditation programs. There is a science and technology committee. There are education committees, a couple of conservation committees. The one that I applied for was, was the animal welfare committee.

[00:19:21] And the reason that I did, that I applied for the animal welfare committee was, it was at the time, this was, you know, a few years back when we had a new accreditation standard called 1.5.0, which basically required that all facilities, all AZA facilities must have an animal welfare assessment process.

[00:19:42] And that was brand new and was something that, you know, many facilities didn't have in, in the forms that we have, the formats that we have now. So that was a big challenge. And there was a lot of folks within, particularly the aquarium community that were a little uncertain about what that meant for aquariums saying, I can't really assess the same things that you're assessing for some of these large megafauna. The same way with a jellyfish that doesn't have a brain.

[00:20:11] Yeah, Alan, you just teed me up there. And the point is, how do you do that? You develop protocols in animal welfare for sharks and rays and teleosts. And you mentioned jellyfish and other invertebrates.

[00:20:28] So how do you get to those species with respect to writing or developing animal husbandry or well-being protocols? That's where we were within the community. I remember having multiple conversations from my peers, from other aquariums and kind of going, I don't know how we do this. And just being very unsure.

[00:20:58] And at the same time, we're getting all this kind of guidance coming out of AZA and the Animal Welfare Committee kind of saying, this is how you should be thinking about doing it. And just not feeling like it translated very well for a lot of the aquatics that we deal with.

[00:21:14] It was through those conversations that we were like, man, it really would be great if we had somebody on the Animal Welfare Committee that kind of knew more about the aquatic side of things to be able to say, hey, this maybe doesn't work great for this. But maybe here's some other ways to think about it. And through that process and those conversations with some of my peers, I realized I basically just told myself that that's what I need to go do is to try to help that process.

[00:21:42] And I made that commitment, not even knowing exactly how that would turn out or how that would work. And so then that's when I went to my director and say, hey, I'd like to join the Animal Welfare Committee. And this is why I'd like to join the Animal Welfare Committee. Would you be supportive of me putting an application for that? So that's how that happened.

[00:22:01] And are you talking about developing protocols for feeding a tank, a particular species, let's say, or cleaning a tank? Or are these including water quality standards? What are you thinking when you're talking about you want to make these standards? Are all these things covered?

[00:22:29] At the time, it was more specifically related to the welfare assessment programs that we needed to have. Or is it actually writing the protocols for how you do this feed or that? We had those. That's not something that we didn't have. We definitely had those in many forms and formats. Okay. The part of being able to look at an animal and assess, is this animal receiving the best animal welfare it can?

[00:22:58] And just not even knowing the language to be using to interpret that was the real challenge at that time for many of the Grimm. Because a lot of these principles were developed looking at hoofstock and looking at elephants and rhinos. And they would use those as examples and talk about that. And it's kind of like, that's great that you can learn all that information from them because that helps them inform how they're doing it. But I don't know how that translates for koi.

[00:23:29] Do you think, Alan, that the marine mammal efforts, you know, cetaceans, around cetaceans or pinnipeds or even polar bears, do you think that provided some sort of, because they're aquatic in nature or even hippos, provided some sort of template for how water habitats play into animal welfare of other species like sharks?

[00:23:59] I absolutely think it did as far as help with some of that translation. But then there are some things that say, when you're talking about marine mammals, they are actually more closely related to, from a behavioral standpoint, from a mental standpoint, related to some of these other species that we've been talking about. Primates, that kind of thing. That a lot of the demonstration of kind of how this is supposed to work was being provided.

[00:24:26] And so it still was kind of like, even with something with marine mammals, okay, there's some, I see some things related to the environment that may be a little bit better for us with that. But still trying to assess the individual species that we care for that are very different and have very different needs than a lot of those other types of species. And so that's where I wanted to get in there and try to help.

[00:24:50] It was a translation process as far as understanding kind of what is the goal of this assessment process. And how do we take these terms that are being used and translate them into terms that are terms we already use within the aquarium when we're talking about, you know, how we are making sure we're doing what we need to do to take care of these animals. And so. And I just want to follow up there real quick.

[00:25:19] And let's say you're doing an animal welfare assessment specific to elasmobrinks. How do you factor in the water they live in with respect to their welfare? So when we're talking about welfare, let's take a small step back. We're talking about basically the well-being of animals. And obviously that has been interpreted many different ways over many years by many groups.

[00:25:45] And so, you know, with AZA, they're trying to use kind of a standardized format to assess kind of those animal welfare. And they it's based off a couple of different, very similar concepts of originally back in the 70s. It was called the five freedoms. And then from Europe, we had a five domain model that we're using. And then here in the States, we had the five opportunities to thrive.

[00:26:09] And this was basically a framework for like, OK, here's how you assess the overall well-being for for an animal or for species. And, you know, those were basic. The basics were as far as that it's an opportunity for a well-balanced diet, ability to self-maintain, opportunity to receive optimal health, to express species specific behaviors and have some level of kind of choice and control with what they're doing.

[00:26:37] So those are the five main ones. There's some, you know, there's some different interpretations of some of those. And people have used some slightly different models for that. But those are the five basic ones that we use when we're looking at assessing animal welfare for an individual or species. So when you are OK, so you get on the Animal Welfare Committee. Yeah. OK, so just give me some specifics, like how many people are on this committee when you joined it? How many?

[00:27:05] And my next question is, are you one of the few aquatic, aquarist, fish type people? And are you like battling saying we need to do this or is everybody on board with what you're trying to accomplish? Yeah, the animal, the committees, the size of the committee is very quite a bit, just depending upon kind of what the committees are. And then at the time that I joined it, we probably were just around two dozen members.

[00:27:35] And there was probably another half dozen kind of advisors. So so people that were probably have most of them had been on the welfare committee at some point and are just known experts, written books on the topic and that kind of thing. And so that's the group that was kind of working through this. And when I joined, yes, I was I was kind of a sole, sole person that had any experience kind of working with fish and invertebrates and life support. And so that was I was very novel. I bet that group.

[00:28:05] You know, Alan, I have something I call invertebrate design. So what we try to do is design a water chemistry that invertebrates can live in, whether that's 50 parts per million nitrate ion, which is really about 10 nitrate nitrogen parts per million.

[00:28:25] And so we get, you know, I figure if we can if we can make coral and anemones and urchins and lobsters happy, a lot goes right. Correct. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:28:47] And it's one of the things that let me go step back a little bit again as far as to one of the questions you asked before, as far as how was I received on onto that committee before we get into this, that next topic here in that, that I was welcome with open arms. I absolutely was welcome with open arms because they had already they had already started identifying their gaps and their kind of understanding and how they can influence with that.

[00:29:15] Now, some of them had had worked with at facilities that had some of these things, but really were not as as fluid and those things before. And so they recognized this like, oh, we've got to do a lot better with trying to figure out how to adapt these frameworks to work with different groups of animals. Aquatics at the time being probably the primary one that was there. Reptiles is another one that wasn't really well adapted for.

[00:29:44] So just reptiles and amphibians. And so there's work was kind of going on with that, too. But aquatics is one that they definitely they definitely had. And as we started kind of engaging and trying to figure out, first of all, me understanding that that language that they're talking about and what we're actually trying to assess, where we're trying to get to and then what are we going to use that for?

[00:30:06] It became very clear very quickly that there were some things that we are doing within the aquarium community and with the life support field that were perfect for what this this framework was. And in some ways, we were doing it far better than many of the terrestrial counterparts.

[00:30:26] And so like what Dr. Jeff was just saying in regards to, say, like the inverse, we know exactly what we need to do to be able to allow these inverts to thrive. We know the water quality parameters that we need to do that. We know those ranges that it needs to be in. And so we can be specific about that and kind of saying this is what if you're keeping inverts.

[00:30:52] Then you know that this is where you need to be assessing your animals as far as if you've got corals, what is your nitrate levels? Are your nitrate levels? Are they below 10? OK, PPM, as far as just knowing where those things need to be.

[00:31:08] And you could you can't really say that for a lot of the terrestrial as far as when they're assessing kind of their environments and they're just they're looking at their environment and not being able to get that specific and have that much precision with what they're actually assessing. Yeah, that's that's sorry to interrupt.

[00:31:30] That's really interesting because here you were showing up kind of like the odd man out because the standards hadn't been established. And you can actually say we actually have standards that we can follow very, very specifically. Yeah, absolutely. And not only do we know what these numbers are, these are numbers that we're slightly paranoid about already.

[00:31:56] These are things that we are checking daily, weekly, you know, a lot, much more so than some terrestrial type things. And so in some respects, this was an area that, you know, from the aquatic side of things, we could help out the terrestrial folks and kind of saying, hey, here's how you can challenge yourself to think more about how you're assessing some of these environmental conditions that maybe you're taking for granted and not really thinking about it much. Yeah. And something there's a big difference.

[00:32:25] And we all know this and our listeners know this. If you're an air breather or if you extract oxygen out of a water column, there are different standards that we have evolved through. The nitrogen cycle being one of them and how we talk about ammonia, for example, and how pH dependent it is.

[00:32:50] And, you know, whether it's total ammonia nitrogen or total ionized or free ammonia, it's the free that we're worried about. And so pH is important. And so all of these things, these parameters create, help create the standard. Right, Alan? That's exactly right. Because what they're looking for in these assessments is they're looking for metrics.

[00:33:16] They're looking for measurements and they're looking for objective measurements, not just subjective measurements. They're looking for objective. And that's where, again, it was just kind of the light bulb was just kind of like, oh my gosh, we've been doing this. We've been doing this a long time. And we just need to basically say, yeah, this is how we're assessing the environment by looking at these things. Incorporating that into a framework. Right. You're like bringing the science to it.

[00:33:44] Yeah. Well, I mean, all of this stuff is the intent is all this is based on science. And that's a core element to any of this, whether we're talking about the water quality outlets or we're talking about a behavioral state. These are all things that absolutely 100% have to be based in the best known science at the time. And that's constantly changing. So these assessments and your metrics need to change over time as well.

[00:34:13] Yeah, this is super interesting. So here you are in the Animal Welfare Committee. So then what do you do? Do you go out to facilities? Are you just on the phone talking to a bunch of facilities, asking them what they do and how they do it? Yeah, there's all those things. So it was at that point when we were starting to kind of figure out, okay, this is, we're not as far off as we think we are in relation to this.

[00:34:41] And so it was a process of being at meetings, whether it's AZA, but also at kind of more aquarium centric ones like we're all and some others meetings and being able to provide presentations that are talking about these concepts and trying to start provide that translation. Okay. So that's a process of, okay, they're saying they want this. This is what that means. This is what we're already doing.

[00:35:10] That already meets kind of that, what they're asking for in regards to kind of the metrics. You just need to plug this into, you know, your assessment form that you're going to use for that. And so it was a lot of that. It was, it was working with other organizations. It was taking phone calls from other curators and directors of husbandry and chatting with them and kind of saying, Hey, I know that you guys, this is what you guys do.

[00:35:34] This is how you can incorporate that into your assessment and be able to provide a product that is what, what we're trying to get at with all this. And to, on as part of the assessment, what, what degree, I mean, how much weight do you give enrichment?

[00:35:52] I am thinking about multi-species fish, elasmobranchs, invertebrates with dolphins or a marine mammal like we have in Abu Dhabi. So obviously that's enriching to the megafauna. But how does that play with respect to a fish? Great question.

[00:36:20] And something we, we did spend a lot of time talking about and whether it was within the community or working with kind of some more of our terrestrial counterparts. And there are, there are things that we can do that are considered enrichment that, that are supporting. And you got to get back to kind of these, these, these opportunities to thrive. And so when you're looking at the opportunity to express species specific behavior.

[00:36:48] And so if you're going to provide an enrichment, it needs to be an enrichment that is going to support that. As far as that we're trying to support, you know, if there's a species that digs for its food down in the sand normally. Then providing an opportunity to do that is probably well worth the time to incorporate that into your program. But not saying that there are other things that could do that might seem like play that, that animals have.

[00:37:16] I mean, we've got lots of examples of, of rays and frozen fish balls and stuff like that, that people have done. That gets some very species specific behavior. It's maybe not necessarily something that they normally do out in the wild, but you are seeing some display of some of those species specific behaviors during that process.

[00:37:35] Um, so there are things like that, but at the same time, understanding that sometimes that in an, in with aquatic species, that's not always appropriate. And a good example is talking about jellyfish. What kind of enrichment are you providing for jellyfish? There's not much that we can do to provide a lot of enrichment to help them display species specific behavior.

[00:38:06] You know, we can play around with flow a little bit, but we've got to be careful on that just because these systems, the way they're designed really typically have to operate within a fairly kind of narrow, you know, flow rate pattern or flow rate. And the pattern that they're in to kind of maintain their position in the water. But there are some things you can play around with that. But at the same time, just saying, okay, for these animals, this is not as critical as it might be.

[00:38:32] And so it doesn't necessarily mean that we always have to include the same amount of enrichment program that we might provide for a terrestrial animal that we would for a jellyfish. Yeah, but that's, but that makes sense because that's why you're getting the input from all these different facilities and all these different keepers and aquarists. And because they know their species very well and you're not going to have the same standard for everything. But let me ask you this.

[00:39:00] So did this work with the animal welfare committee? Did it turn into you being a AZA inspector? It was actually, it was, I feel like those were a little more parallel as far as, as I was learning more about and really digging into this, to this topic of animal welfare and aquatics. It was just like, oh, okay. I think a lot of the stuff that's in the standards, the accreditation standards are, are very important.

[00:39:29] And the more I was kind of digging into those is like, yeah, these are really critical. And these are things that we, although I've been involved in accreditations, you know, all my career is kind of like really taking a hard look at these standards and going like having a better understanding of them versus just. Making sure, you know, I have X, Y, and Z because this is what the standard says, but understanding the why behind those, I think was the light bulb for me with that. And that was what led me to, to apply to be, you know, accreditation inspector.

[00:39:57] So tell me, cause this is kind of the, the crux of this whole conversation. So when you go to inspect in the past, and I'm sure it's changed over the years, are you looking for LSS specific things and have those changed over the years to become more stringent or what are you looking for?

[00:40:24] There are actually not that many standards that are specific to LSS. There's a lot of standards that you can traditionally include as part of those standards as far as the LSS. But as far as standards, there's really like only three standards that are really getting at LSS. And the first one is, is that basically you have a water quality monitoring program for, for if you are maintaining aquatic species.

[00:40:51] And that's number one, as far as it's in, and it's in the animal care section. That's saying that you got to have, that you got to have a program. It's not that, and with AZA standards, they are not prescriptive. They are performative. And when I say that, what I mean is they're not going to tell you, you need to have a water quality monitoring program that includes temperature, pH, DO, you know, nitrite, you know, nitrate, nitrite, ammonia. They're not going to tell you all that.

[00:41:21] They're going to tell you that basically you just need to have a water monitoring program that's appropriate for the species that you care for. And it's up to you to prove that what you're doing meets that need and that you can, and it's justifiable. That's one. Another one is, is that if you have LSS systems that you have monitor, some type of monitoring and process for monitoring LSS systems, basically 24 seven.

[00:41:48] Um, and that's something that's, that one has changed a little bit over the years. And Jeff probably can speak to this one too, as far as that's one that routinely was one that just like, okay, well, we got to have an operator here 24 seven to monitor these systems. We're now with the advancement, uh, uh, with the advancement of a lot of more new technologies is we can do a lot of this without necessarily having to have somebody go in and visually inspect this.

[00:42:15] But you got to have something there in place to monitor those systems. Yeah. And that becomes monitoring and further control automated control systems like an RCK. And we've, we've had this topic multiple times on the shows and, and that's important too, because it maintains the systems, but you as an operator, Alan, and I have a followup to as an operator,

[00:42:42] what is your expectations out of, oh, the computer can handle it versus eyes on the equipment. It's interesting. Cause we just had a situation yesterday where we had the computer telling us one thing. And then I had, we were looking at that and the operators are looking at it and kind of just looking at it for what it is on that screen.

[00:43:07] But it's a whole nother thing to go out and look at it and kind of say is what I'm seeing out there reflective of what's on that screen. And so to me, those things are integrally important to make sure that it happens. And in that situation, basically the screen's telling us it's doing this, the equipment's telling us it's doing something else. So that means that they're very quickly identifies where that problem is. It's in the communication between those two things and allowed us to kind of be able to troubleshoot that pretty quickly.

[00:43:36] So that's why it, it's nice to have these newer technologies, but boy, it still doesn't take the place of going in touch with that pulp and saying, is this, is this actually doing what it's supposed to be doing? So as a AZA inspector, you're looking for a water quality monitoring program. You're looking for some way that your LSS is monitored 24 seven. Even if it's just, even if it's just someone making rounds. Yes, absolutely.

[00:44:06] And so the third thing is what? The third thing is for any facility that is using any of these kind of dangerous oxidizing agents that we use, whether it's ozone or chlorine, that you've got a protocol for how that's to be used and how it can be safely done by the staff. And that kind of comes in into the safety aspects of the accreditation standards as part of the safety, because these things are very dangerous.

[00:44:36] They're very dangerous. And so we do need to set the standards that we're protecting our staff and making sure that they are doing this as safely as possibly can be done. These are great things to use as part of our LSS systems, but we do need to respect just how dangerous it can be if it's not done correctly.

[00:45:00] And I would just add, Alan, what weight in an inspection is put on the habitat design features? I'm pivoting away from LSS, but this would be thematic elements, rock work, wave or water motion devices.

[00:45:22] Is there any weight given to these LSS adjacent things that are occurring inside the habitat itself? Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, 100%. And there may not be a standard specific for that, particularly with aquatic systems.

[00:45:42] There are a lot of standards that are standards around the habitat, making sure that they are safe for the animals and for the people that are around those habitats, whether it's the staff working in and around those habitats or if it is guests as well. And so there are a lot of standards around that.

[00:46:03] And there are standards that making sure it's not just safe, but these are getting back at some of these things we're talking about with the welfare as far as these are things that are going to help support this animal long term. Okay. This is, I mean, I didn't know about some of these newer AZA standards in terms of LSS. That's interesting.

[00:46:26] I think the takeaway is water quality monitoring, some sort of control system or some way to check on the system 24-7. And then, of course, ozone mostly. But you have to be safe with your oxidizers. So that's super interesting. So we could talk about AZA a long time, but we got to start wrapping this up. But I want to hear about your current job at Discovery Cove because it's a very unique facility.

[00:46:55] And how do you, is Discovery Cove the fact that it's a swim-through system, that humans are in the water? And are there changes to your job or things that you need to know? Or how is this job different from your other jobs? Yeah, it's a good question. And Discovery Cove is one of the most unique places I've ever been to. It really is. As far as from the animal interaction standpoint.

[00:47:22] And something that I have come to appreciate significantly over the course of my career, as far as these in-water experiences are some of the most transformative experiences for people. Much more so than just, you know, looking through some acrylic at an aquarium. That these experiences change lives. And they change how people think about the ocean and think about the animals that live in the ocean and how we interact with the ocean.

[00:47:50] So I'm very supportive of this type of programming. But it does present some very unique challenges with the way that they are operated. I mean, first off, these systems are outside. They're closed loop. So that right there presents a fairly significant challenge. And particularly this time of year for us, it's the rain. We just, we get so much rain this time of year here in Florida. That it is a daily battle.

[00:48:19] Try to maintain our salinities and maintain a proper salinity composition. That's a big challenge just because of the environment that it's in. And then we're also dealing with just, we've got to keep up with the cleanliness of it because an outdoor exhibit, as many people might know, it just starts growing algae like crazy. And so, you know, what are some things that we need to do to help with that? And so we have, we're using lanthan chloride on the system.

[00:48:44] As far as for the, for the more fish system, we're using lanthan chloride to kind of help control the phosphates in there so that we're trying to control some of that, that algae growth. But at the same time, we, we have very large dive team that comes in every night and is cleaning in those habitats to keep them, to keep them healthy. You know, but with the people coming in, that does present a lot of very unique challenges.

[00:49:08] I mean, we, you know, we're dealing with over, can have over 2000 people swimming in that habitat during the day. That's a lot of people. It's a lot of people. It's a 1.2 million gallon system with all the filtration, but it's, that's a lot of people kind of moving through there. And that's a lot of people that have got all kinds of different lotions and sunscreens. And although all that stuff is trying, you're trying to kind of protect some of that, but it just, you're dealing with a lot of those types of things being entered into the water.

[00:49:36] So it's just introducing a lot of variables that you don't normally have to account for. Yeah, it's, it's very true. I, I was lucky enough to work on that project. So back in like 2009, I was working for 2009, 2010. I was working for MWH, working with Paul Cooley, Chris Eccles, John K. Meyer, Paul Rufner, Emerson Olander. And we designed that system. We had some very specific things we had to look out for.

[00:50:03] And one of them was the sand that was being pushed into the sumps and was going to the pumps and actually etching the impellers. And so we designed a sand settling basin or channel. It wasn't really a basin, more like a channel that would slow the water down and allow it to settle prior to getting to the pumps. I won't get into the engineering of all that, but that was a very unique part of it and a very cool project to work on.

[00:50:30] Yeah, the sand, the sand is a big challenge for us because there's no way for the guests. There are sandy beaches. They're bringing in more sand every time they walk in as they're walking in, they're stirring up sand. So we've got areas that are being stirred up significantly more than you would have in a normal system. And so a lot of this stuff is then getting up in the water column and then being pulled out into our filtration.

[00:50:51] So yes, having systems like that where you allow for some of that sand to settle out is important and something that is a constant thought on our minds is with the sand. And we also spend a lot of time removing excess sand as well. So it is a challenge. And that nightly pressure washing and vacuuming you do, it is like an army goes out there and stirs everything up.

[00:51:16] And then by opening at whatever, 9 a.m. or 10 a.m., it looks great. Yeah. And they do a lot of work and they do it really quickly because we also, we enforce kind of quiet hours too. And so it's not that they can just be working from as soon as we close until we open in the morning as far as they get in there as soon as we close. And then they're done early into kind of the night so that there is kind of some quiet time in there and the animals can have some of that quiet time without some of those activities going on.

[00:51:45] So that's still important as well for that process. You said something, and I'll take it from a higher level, from a corporate standpoint. This experience at Discovery Cove is immersive. You mentioned it, Alan. We're bringing the ocean to our guests. It's, I think about all of the different experiences, hands-on. You get to actually be in the habitat with the animals.

[00:52:12] And that is a, I'm going to say, a fairly rare opportunity for most of our guests. One thing I wanted to pivot to real quick there at Discovery Cove, you have the Asian otter habitat with African cichlids, Asian species with an African species, but nonetheless, multi-species. And how does that, what does that present not only to the guests, but for enrichment for the otters?

[00:52:44] Yeah, it is something different that you'll see. And there's other places that have kind of a similar setup, but there's not many that offer this ability to kind of see otters interacting with fish in their habitat. And, you know, there are, there are a lot of cool things about that. They, and right now it's pretty cool for us too, because we've got three baby otters that are in that habitat.

[00:53:08] So, so if you want to come see some baby otters right now, exploring a new habitat with fish and everything, it's a lot of fun to watch right now. So please come out and join us, but it is something that there are times where, you know, the otters could care less that the fish are there. And then there's other times that they will, they're loving the fact that there is some other species in there and that they're chasing around. Now, you know, the question is always asked, does the otters ever eat the fish? And yes, it can happen.

[00:53:35] And that is something that is something that we're, we're supportive of in that sense, just because primarily when that happens, that is a stress on that individual, but it is a very acute stress. And when you look at all the animal welfare stuff that kind of we're talking about before, the things that we're trying to avoid is chronic stress. So long-term stress.

[00:53:54] And so that's really the, the, when you get down to the core of kind of what we're talking about with animal welfare is that we avoid chronic stress and just try to mitigate acute stress. And that is a very acute event when it happens. And so the animal does not suffer. That does occur. All right, let's, let's wrap this up, Alan, as we ask all our guests, yours is going to be very interesting because I want you to relate this to your experience with AZA.

[00:54:21] But what would be your advice to a young person or even a person working at a zoo and aquarium now, maybe an LSS or in water quality or on the husbandry side, what would your advice be for them to maybe get more involved in AZA and helping to create standards? We absolutely need it. First of all, we need our younger folks to be plugged into that.

[00:54:46] There are, typically you have some older folks that are involved in this and we definitely need some newer folks that have newer ideas. And so I encourage anybody that thinking, oh, I don't have enough experience or I haven't been in the field long enough to really provide that expertise opinion. I would argue you do. And that that is something that you can provide.

[00:55:09] And that although you may not have maybe as much head knowledge as somebody else, you coming into this field right now during this time under the circumstances that we have and, and all that, you have a good perspective on that. And that's something that you can contribute to the community as a whole. And if you are interested in, in learning more about that, then first off, I mean, there's, you can learn about all of these things that we've talked about today. These are all things that are available on the AZA website.

[00:55:38] You can go pull those up, even if you're not a member of AZA, you can pull all these things up and learn more about the accreditation standards or learn about kind of the welfare, animal welfare from AZA's perspective and how it's being assessed. You can learn about all those things. And then if you can hopefully, fortunately be able to be able to attend an AZA conference at some point, that's a good way to kind of get a feel for what it's like.

[00:56:02] And one of the neat things about a lot of these AZA committees is that most of them have their primary sessions at these, at the, at the meetings are open to the public. And so it's anybody can sit in on, on one of the meetings to kind of see what's being discussed, what's being talked about. And that was something that I did fairly early on was just, I was interested in learning more about what does this community do? What does this community do? And being able to sit in and listen to them talking about it.

[00:56:30] And then if it's something that you're passionate about, then, and by all means approach your, you know, your director, your president, whatever it is. And say, I'd really like to look at applying to participate in an AZA committee or a tag. We've mentioned, we've mentioned that before too, because that's, that's another great way to kind of get started with an AZA is being part of some of these tags, these taxon advisory groups.

[00:56:53] Particularly if you've got a lot of experience with a single species or a group of animals, that's a great way to kind of get that your foot in the door there to learn more about these things. And ask for their support so that you could, you can apply for one of these, one of these roles. Good advice. I would say very quickly, if you're at a facility and you know that a accreditation's coming up, get involved, ask questions, talk to the inspectors. It's a very good learning experience. Dr. Jeff, last word.

[00:57:23] Yeah. On that point, Joe, there are also, you know, mock inspections that we go through where we practice, right? And we, you know, and we, we see before the actual inspection, what we might need to improve before the real thing. Just to follow up on a couple of things here, the, you, you may have heard a giant belch of air every now and then outside Allen's office. I thought that was Allen. Yeah, it wasn't Allen.

[00:57:53] It was, you know, this air compressor, part of the air prep system for ozone systems, but that's beside the point. You need a new office, Allen. My goodness. Yeah. Jeff, can you work on that? We can talk about that. Insulated or something. I don't have a budget for that. It's down. Proof it.

[00:58:11] The point here is that the AZA.org, and Allen alluded to this website, there's a lot of free resources there, right? And I would just point out animal care manuals written by subject matter experts on a species.

[00:58:33] It covers air quality, water quality, and then goes into all the habitat design features. So all of that is important to LSS operations. I love it. Thank you, Allen. Great talking to you. Thank you. Thanks, Allen. So thanks to Allen McDowell, water quality manager at Discovery Co. in Orlando. And thanks to Asahi and Integrated Aqua for sponsoring this show.

[00:59:00] And thank you to all of you for listening to Inflow. Be sure to subscribe and leave us a review. And don't forget, you can always stay connected with us at inflowlsspodcast.com.