Ep 44 - Inside AALSO 26 Part 1: Lessons from Chris Carr & Sean Bourgeois

[00:00:05] Greetings all, Joe Arlotto here with Dr. Jeff Kefaber. Welcome to Inflow, the podcast where we discuss all things related to aquatic animal life support. The show is sponsored by Ardura and Cloward H2O. You can learn more about our sponsors by clicking on the sponsors page at inflowlsspodcast.com.

[00:00:27] Dr. Jeff Kefaber, Aquatic Animal Life Support Operators. Also, we talk a lot about this organization here on Inflow and for good reason. You know Dr. Jeff and I went to the ALSO conference last month at the Kansas City Zoo and Aquarium. And besides seeing old friends and our sponsors like our sponsors today, Rob Cloward was there and Paul Cooley and Chris Eccles from Ardura were there as well.

[00:00:54] Dr. Jeff Kefaber, Aquatic Animal Life Support Professionally, so besides catching up with old friends, socially, professionally, there's a lot going on. There's lectures about new exhibits, about fixing old systems, water chemistry, specific equipment, ozone systems, biological systems. Then there's these breakout sessions or dry workshops where you can learn about equipment or systems in a small group, even get a chance to take things apart.

[00:01:21] Dr. Jeff Kefaber, Aquatic Animal Life Support Professionally, so there's a lot of different things that you can learn about. And then of course, there's the ball, the big automated water loop where you can actually see systems in operation, you know, moving water. You can rebuild pumps. You can work with ozone generators, protein skimmers, heat exchangers, filters, controls. And you can even get certified, you know, as an operator or certified in water quality. It's a very busy five days. So what was your highlight, Dr. Jeff?

[00:01:48] Dr. Jeff Kefaber, Aquatic Animal Life Support Professionally, so this particular also in Kansas City was highlighted for me by the expertise presented in the lecture hall. I love the workshops, but I also love hearing the successes, the failures, the fact that we share all the data, all the information with one another. It's a wonderful scene.

[00:02:13] And specifically, and Joe, you pointed this out to me, examples of high-tech phosphate removal technology from water. That's the holy grail, right? If we can get rid of phosphate, we can get rid of algae.

[00:02:28] So I liked how everyone in the room responded to the talks in general, the workshops, the show itself with the vendors that are so willing to teach and the operators are so willing to learn and the creativity in the room and the automated water loop, which has all the processes represented.

[00:02:56] And one thing we talked about, Joe, and we talked about it with Todd and Dennis, is that we want to one day go to a water loop that is actually biologically active so we can make some measurements on what these processes actually do for us. Yeah, that's the next thing for sure. I remember talking to Todd and Dennis about that and you, and it'll take a little bit of work. It'll take some planning, but it's doable, right?

[00:03:23] I think it's doable for sure. And we can get there. It's going to take a little time, as you said, but we can get to a real system without having fish. We can dose ammonia. We can do things that simulate fish in an aquarium.

[00:03:41] Yeah, it's very cool. It's the next thing. So for me, I really enjoyed, well, I really enjoy all of it. I mean, catching up with old friends is really a highlight. But specifically, I attended a workshop with John Overby from Ozone Water Systems and Robert Satchel from Satchel Engineering.

[00:04:03] And it was sort of a dual talk about ozone systems, but then also about incorporating those into the design. So it was a very interesting look at how John and Robert coordinate the LSS design with the ozone system, because the ozone system is sort of designed within the LSS system.

[00:04:29] So I really enjoyed hearing those two go back and forth on how they work together, because ultimately, LSS is a lot of systems working together. Another highlight for me was, I love these talks about troubleshooting and fixing systems. And I saw a talk from Adam McGowan at Houston Zoo, where they were having problems in their degas tower.

[00:04:56] Their bio media was not supported properly. It was kind of falling apart. They were getting some air, some bubbles into the pool. So they had to troubleshoot this. And then as a staff, they got into the degas tower. One day they planned it. They removed the media. They put new media in. They supported it better.

[00:05:20] And then they installed nozzles where the water would be evenly distributed over the degas media. And huge success. No more air in the pool. Properly supported media. Media not falling apart. And so, to me, big success story. But I love the fact that they had to – it was a process to fix all this.

[00:05:47] And to hear it in a talk, to me, was just really, really interesting. I really enjoyed it. Yeah, let me follow up on that, Joe. Because what is happening there, of course, is equalizing the gases, right? And so, the more surface area you can put in front of the water allows for gases to be removed from the water and sent out the tower.

[00:06:15] And in some cases, there's still ozone residual there. In other cases, it's just air if the ozone's been consumed. But the media, whether that's Brentwood or surfaces like BioBalls, that means a lot, right, Joe? Yeah, absolutely. And the thing is, is we've all been there, right? We've all seen the air in the exhibit. Now, it could be various things happening.

[00:06:43] You could be moving your water too fast. Your degas tower might not be designed big enough. Your velocity of the water going down is faster than the velocity of the air going up, right? Yes. Or it could be something that the Houston Zoo found, obviously. You're not degassing properly. Your bio media isn't working properly. It's not all in one piece.

[00:07:09] There could be a lot of reasons, but just to see Adam sort of go step by step in his troubleshooting process and to share that with us really is, we all can relate to it, which makes it that much more meaningful, I think. Yeah, it was gratifying to hear that.

[00:07:29] And also, I think back, Joe, and we talk about this often, the Mirage, the charter group of us that just came into a small room in the Mirage in Las Vegas before also was a thing. And we just gave talks and presentations and talked to one another about the technology. And I remember delivering a talk at the time of a small group.

[00:07:57] EnerTech was there, John Lynn, you, Joe, and all of our friends from the old days, 1992. And I just talked about the chemistry of ozone in water. And that kicked off a whole discussion around that topic. So very good segue, Dr. Jeff, because I thought maybe I would just give a little bit of a, just a brief history of how ALSO started.

[00:08:24] Because this episode of Inflow is going to be about the ALSO show that we went to and some people we talked to. For those of you who've listened to Inflow from the beginning, you know, those first few guests we had, you know, were some of the founding fathers of LSS. And so you heard about EnerTech, the engineering firm in San Diego, who specialized in LSS.

[00:08:49] You know, they had SeaWorld, they had other clients too in the U.S. and internationally. So in 1994, I believe it was, Pat Case from EnerTech, very good guy, very smart engineer. He had an idea to have an LSS symposium. He said, let's get folks together. We work with enough of them. Why don't we get them together and we can talk LSS?

[00:09:14] So he and the other folks at EnerTech, like Nestor Ramos, Joel Johnson, John Waters, Bill Imus, John Lynn. I'm sure these guys helped Pat out. And Pat sent out a letter to all of his clients, to various zoos and aquariums, to various vendors. And he sent out this letter saying, we're going to get together at the Mirage, like you say, in Las Vegas, because the Mirage was one of EnerTech's clients as well.

[00:09:42] And so the Mirage hosted this first LSS symposium. And I went, because I was working at Brookfield Zoo as an EnerTech client. And there was about 30 of us. Operators gave talks. John Lynn gave a talk, like you say, about engineering fundamentals. Dr. Jeff, you gave a talk about ozone. But it wasn't an also conference at that point. But it was so successful.

[00:10:09] Pat got so much good feedback that at the end of the conference, he pulled me aside. He pulled Stuart McDaniel aside from the Mirage. He pulled Greg Case from SeaWorld Florida, all of his clients. And he said, John Waters from EnerTech would help. And we would plan the next conference.

[00:10:32] So two months later, I'm sitting in a construction trailer at SeaWorld Florida in Orlando. I'm with John Waters. I'm with Greg Case. Stuart McDaniel is on the phone. And Jeff, you were on the phone too, right? Yeah, I was on the phone with you guys. I remember this distinctly. Yeah, because Jeff, we wanted you to be basically our first director on our first board, right? I think that was discussed. I never actually became a director.

[00:11:02] I was a founding father for sure. But I was a science advisor, right? And that's kind of what the role was initially. Right. And so we said, okay, we're going to plan the next conference. But to do that, we need to have an organization. So Stuart actually said, let's call it also Aquatic Animal Life Support Operators.

[00:11:30] Greg Case was assigned to be treasurer. He opened up a bank account. He put together the bylaws. And then I was assigned to be secretary. So I sent out letters to every zoo and aquarium from the AZA directory. And Greg said, we'll host it at SeaWorld Florida. And in 1996, that was the first official also symposium. That's right.

[00:11:57] And of course, it came back to Disney in 2011, I think. We were hosted beautifully there. And all of us got together. And it was our second tour of duty at Disney. We got a chance to meet up with Chris Carr from the Long Beach Aquarium. I've known Chris for a long time, good friend. And it was really, really good to see him. I asked him to give us a quick history. How did he end up at the Long Beach Aquarium?

[00:12:27] Well, it was great timing. I had just graduated college in marine biology at Long Beach. I was working at Cabrillo Aquarium in San Pedro. That was the nearest aquarium to me at the time. And I was doing great there and really loved it. Had a friend who was working at the Aquarium of the Pacific when it first opened. And he called me and said, hey, you need to apply for a life support job. And I'm like, I don't even know what life support is. I was joking with him. I was like, what do we give mouth to mouth to the fish or something like that?

[00:12:57] And so I applied and I realized that that was actually my calling because I was really into marine life and really into fish. And I was turning wrenches a lot. And I was working on cars and I was working on boats and working at Cabrillo. And I always look back into the pump room and say, hey, I really want to get my hands on the equipment. And so this was a really great job for me. I started in 2000 in May. And I was a life support technician.

[00:13:26] So I was a technician for about five years. I promoted a manager in 2005. And the rest is history. It was a young, dynamic staff there at Long Beach. Really, really good guys. And a lot of them are still involved in LSS in various LSS capacities. And Chris talked about that. Yeah. Like some of them are vice presidents of facilities in big, big places.

[00:13:56] Some of them are now vendors that are selling me equipment. That's right. So it's really neat to see people go full circle, come around. And we're still seeing each other at these events. And we're still staying in contact. It's such a great group of guys. I think when an aquarium starts and you go through all these trials and tribulations, it brings you closer. And the minute you might be upset with each other and frustrated and trying to work things out. But I think ultimately it brings you closer as a group. Well said, Chris.

[00:14:24] Chris, and I think about Cabrillo. I'm going to go back there for a moment because I used to take my oceanography students from El Camino College there and teach there. What a great little facility to learn life support, to learn habitats and aquariums. It's really granular, right? It really is. It's really, really great. I was lucky enough to go there as a kid on a field trip.

[00:14:53] And I remember we hatched grunion fish eggs in a little baby food jar. And I'll never forget it. And I thought that was the coolest thing. And as soon as I got the chance to volunteer there, I went straight in. And, you know, the tide pools are right there. You know, you can go out and it's right near the beach. All the people are just so incredibly nice there. It is a small little facility, but they really do big things for such a small place.

[00:15:20] Yeah, and then you transitioned, I think, was it 1998 that AOP opened? Yeah, they opened in June of 98. Yeah, so I started a little bit after they opened. I know in those days I was living down in Laguna Beach and I actually signed up and became a member of the aquarium for a few years. And I think you also hosted an also back in the day. Yeah, right when we first opened. I think, Joe, did you go to that also?

[00:15:48] I was at that also show. Beautiful new facility back then. And like we said, incredible staff. Many of those guys are still slinking around the LSS world. I mean, Keith Hackey at Philadelphia Zoo. Matt Hort at RCK. Drew Tubb at Asahi now. Eric Hall, Atlanta Zoo. Tom Tyra. He's at LA Zoo. Tony Promisi at Cal Academy.

[00:16:15] And Chris, Chris Carr, still at Long Beach. And he's seen a lot of changes over the years. So I asked him to describe, you know, the aquarium, the major exhibits, and some of the changes he's seen from being one of the original staff members. Yeah, the Aquarium of the Pacific, it's a 501c3 nonprofit. We opened in 1998. It represents three areas of the Pacific Ocean. So there's the tropical, there's the temperate, and then there's the northern Pacific.

[00:16:44] So we have some cold water stuff, some tropical stuff, some temperate stuff. Overall, we have 1.2 million gallons total in the facility. Our largest tank is 360,000 gallons. That's our tropical reef exhibit. But we're doing so many great things. Right now, we just built a turtle rescue tank. We're doing otter surrogacy. We're doing coral restoration. Really, really cool things happening at AOP. So all of the systems are closed.

[00:17:13] Every exhibit that you see has its own life support, which is great for quarantine, for habitat. And it's definitely job security for our team because there's a lot of equipment. I thought that was interesting. You know, he's on the coast, and it's kind of a closed system. And I asked him, you know, why is that? Well, we would love to just put a big pipe out to the ocean. I think that's great. But we are at the base of the LA River. And I like to tell everybody the water quality is dynamic.

[00:17:42] So it's not always the freshest and the best for us. So we do get water from the ocean. We treat it on site, and we can use that in batches. I love the word dynamic, Chris. It means constant change. That's right. It's like a yin-yang word, right? Constant change. Like a roller coaster of water quality. So you're sitting at the mouth of the LA River. That can't be good. You have the harbor nearby.

[00:18:07] So when you go to a closed system on the coast in Southern California, do you have backwash recovery then? And do you have denitrification, these sorts of things? Yeah, we do. We have denitrification. We have denitrification on two of our systems, two of our largest systems, Shark Lagoon and Sea Otters, actually. And so that helps us a lot. We do backwash recovery.

[00:18:34] We're doing less backwash recovery these days because we're actually using some of our backwash recovery systems for seawater intake, for filtration of the water for the seawater intake. So, yes, we're at the base of the LA River. We have our intake pump is strapped to the side of a fishing pier behind the aquarium, and it's completely covered with a big screen. And when the tide is high and not five days after a rain,

[00:19:00] we turn the pump on and we pump in about 65, 70,000 gallons into our tanks. And then we filter that, clean that up with mechanical filtration, with sand filters, with ozone, with aeration. Carbon and perlite actually help take out the heavy metals because there's some heavy metals down there. And we clean up the water to the parameters that we need. And that provides us with about a third of the water that we use at Aquarium of the Pacific.

[00:19:25] When you're processing this water to prepare it for introduction to the habitats, talk about ORP. When you're trying to burn off some contamination that may come in, what sort of millivolt range are you trying to achieve? I think the millivolts that we're aiming for in the system, like we're really trying to zap it.

[00:19:52] So I don't want anything that's going to harm the animals to come in. So I think we're running at about 700 for quite some time. So we found out that we can clean up that water in about four hours, which is pretty quite amazing. But I leave it in there for 24 hours. I just want to make sure everything's okay. So we really zap. I get the millivolts up to about 700. And then once it's clean, we move it into our main reservoirs, where I'm lightly dosing ozone and keeping it at about 350 in our reservoirs.

[00:20:21] So our reservoirs are about 250,000 gallons. And we can keep it topped off. And our saltwater makeup pumps move that water around the building. So all we have to do is open a valve to fill up any exhibits as we need. And when you say move the water around the building, you have obviously a saltwater supply loop that travels around? Yeah, exactly. We have a saltwater makeup supply loop. It's separate from the filter pumps on the reservoir. So it takes that reservoir water and it, with pipes,

[00:20:51] sends it up all the way up to the third floor above every exhibit. And then a lot of different areas where the aquarist staff can use it with a hose to use the fill. It's really good. So if you're an aquarist working on a jewel or small boutique type of aquarium or in quarantine or holding, they have a ready supply of fresh saltwater available. Yeah, they sure do.

[00:21:19] Yeah, it's just basically a hose on the wall and they can open the valve wherever they are and get saltwater. I asked about Chris's staff. So we're there 24 hours a day. My staff are a team of, I guess, eight technicians. We've got two supervisors and then I'm the manager. I report directly to the vice president. And it's really great. It's such a great group of guys. They work four 10-hour shifts.

[00:21:45] We kind of mimic the California Maritime Association boat watch, boat standing watch. So there's a 5.30 in the morning until 4 in the afternoon shift. There's a 10 in the morning until 8.30 at night shift. And then our night shift people come in at 8 o'clock at night and they get out 6 o'clock in the morning. So, and they're very, it's such a great group of guys. We do a lot of work in-house. So we do a lot of building in-house, a lot of design in-house. And so everybody gets to do a lot of different things.

[00:22:14] So we're doing everything from programming the building computer to installing to demo to sizing and designing and ordering. And it's really great. It gives you a sense of ownership of, you know, what you're doing. And you can kind of get to put the equipment where you want to also. Right. So let's talk, you kind of alluded to it there, but let's talk control systems. So the guys at night or 8 p.m. to 6 a.m., they're monitoring the control systems. And is there, do they do rounds?

[00:22:44] Do they walk through the equipment? The answer is yes to all those things. Actually, they're doing rounds. We do rounds four times in 24 hours. So we're walking around with an iPad, basically. And we have a list of all the things that we've got to look at. And so it's flows, it's temperatures, it's pressures, it's ORP levels, DO levels, almost anything with a gauge on it. It takes about an hour and a half to go through and look at everything. We do that four times in 24 hours. And then, of course, everything's monitored by a building computer. We have Siemens building technology.

[00:23:14] And if anything goes into alarm, it sends us, I want to say a page, because we used to use pagers back in the day. But it sends us an alarm on our duty phone. And then they can take care of it from there. My night staff mainly does backwashes, because the city asks us to do all our backwashes at night because of the peak flow that comes down the line. And then they're doing light work orders.

[00:23:39] I don't have my night guys doing too much work with heavy machinery just to keep them safe there by themselves at night. And then I was curious about water quality, whether it was part of the life support or whether it was separate. It's a separate thing right now there with the husbandry department. Although we work very, very closely with water quality lab. I always like to saunter into the lab every day and see what the results are in the most recent tests. And we have a good relationship.

[00:24:07] I believe that that is very important. That relationship between however the facility is organized, that you have a day-on-day, hour-on-hour relationship with those folks in the husbandry, animal care, and life support is just a better curatorial position in my view. How do you approach it? I feel the same way.

[00:24:36] It's very, very important for the life support staff, the husbandry staff, especially water quality to get along. And a lot of times I'll go in and I'll have my idea of what I think is happening in a system. And I see what's happening with the probes and I see what's happening with the system. And I'll go in and I'll talk to the water quality folks who just sample and then really have a lot of great ideas and they'll explain something that I didn't even think of. Like, oh my God. And sure enough, like that was the problem, you know? And so we're bouncing ideas off each other.

[00:25:05] And sometimes the water quality folks, they're just so smart. They come up with ideas that I don't think about. Let's take a quick break to hear from Ben Ash at MDM Pumps. MDM is one of our level three sponsors and they have been very supportive of Inflow from the get-go. Hey, Ben, good to see you. Good to see you. Tell us about MDM Pumps. Yes, of course.

[00:25:27] Well, we were a small family business founded in 1978 when a lot of industrial markets like metal finishing and plating were still stateside here. And we had a vision. We, I would say that was my father who really made a large strides into promoting non-metallics plastics and engineered plastics. And we started with small pumps then.

[00:25:57] But today you can fast forward and we have optimized, I say our product offering into an ANSI process line of pumps made out of thermal seed essence.

[00:26:10] So we, along with tons of research into thermal setting resins and polymers and figuring out newer technologies that make the manufacturing processes more efficient, how we can push the envelope in hydraulic efficiency, how we can make things more compact, which was really driven by the LSS markets. Because we all know that lots of those facilities. Because we all know that lots of those facilities don't have very much space to work with.

[00:26:40] And, you know, that it was that vision that I think has given us a competitive edge in the marketplace today. So, Ben, all this work with polymers and thermosetting and all of the vocabulary you just used around your products. Tell us how you've taken that and adapted it to an industry that works on salt water. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:27:08] So a lot of the pump manufacturers, you know, that 50 years ago were making pumps for chemicals have evolved into the salt water markets. Right. The first guys to really do it was Ingersoll, Ingersoll Dresser. Right. And they had a vinyl ester resin that was purely targeted for chemical markets.

[00:27:33] But that was the high spec that made its way into the aquarium and zoo market. And with it came the ANSI B73.1 specification. Right. We have adapted to those specs and to those markets with our newer technologies of thermosetting resins.

[00:27:54] We do something very differently called compression molding with molded compounds compared to the other guys that are using technologies called resin transfer molding. And I can get into those differences, but we we've applied new technologies like BMCs. OK, which make our parts cycle faster. Right. You could take 48 hours to do a resin transfer molded part roughly with a lot of secondary machining.

[00:28:22] Our parts cycle anywhere from 10 to 30 minutes without any secondary machining. So it takes a lot of cost out of it. And then we really just have been strong components of closed coupling. And here in North America, you know, we have the NEMA motor and all of its compliance. Right. That comes with using a NEMA motor.

[00:28:43] But we latched on to what they call the JM shaft system, which is a shorter shaft, but bigger diameters that can handle heavy radial loads that you find in process pumps and applied into the aquariums. And we built our pump platform off of closed coupling to that motor.

[00:29:05] So what that did was you have a better molding and compounded thermostat resin technology than what was done 50 years ago. But also you trim the fat off of these pump configurations by getting rid of a base plate and a bearing frame and a coupling and all that extra stuff by just putting a pump motor together.

[00:29:29] So, so what you're saying is, is for someone choosing a pump in an aquarium, a saltwater aquarium. Number one, the MDMs are nonmetallic. So they don't corrode. They, they resist the saltwater and last a long time. Plus they fit in small spaces. That's correct. Yeah, that's correct. And we, in addition to that, we've really latched onto enclosed impeller technology.

[00:29:54] So, you know, semi open impellers tend to be less efficient than enclosed impellers and especially less efficient when you don't get that clearance setting right in an ANSI style pump. You know, that, that clearance of getting it right up against the volute wall is really critical to efficiency. With closed coupling and, uh, and enclosed. Peller impellers. You don't have to worry about that.

[00:30:23] I mean, all the really tough stuff about servicing frame mounted pumps like laser alignment, shaft alignment, clearance settings. That all goes away with closed coupling. The shroud to that open impeller right now it's enclosed and that tight tolerance into the volute boosts your efficiencies. In a lot of cases, 10 to 15% more than semi open impellers. We also met up with Sean Bourgeois from the Virginia Aquarium.

[00:30:52] I met Sean at the first equality conference in Portugal in 2004. So we sat down with him in Kansas City. You know, I, I lost my voice there. So I'm sounding a bit squirrely, but you know, we asked him how he got started at the aquarium. It's a long story and it's coincidental. I think, um, perhaps though I was, uh, out of the Navy.

[00:31:16] Um, I spent six years working on nuclear power plants and on, on, on an aircraft carrier, which was interesting enough. Um, going to college using my GI Bill. And I was looking at being a teacher, like a high school physics teacher initially, and come to realize that there's not a whole lot of physics teaching jobs out there. So got into a high school teaching high school math.

[00:31:39] Um, and a lot more jobs in this, a lot easier to pass a math class than a, than a physics class. So that, that was, um, where I started and, and I had a part-time job, um, working at the Virginia Aquarium or at the time, um, Virginia Marine Science Museum. And I thought it was a great place to be in touch with the educational community teachers and field trips.

[00:32:03] And, and, uh, I did everything I could to, to, to make ends meet as a college dude. Um, so I worked on, um, you know, exhibits like static exhibits. I was a stranding research technician and I, I, I did inventory in the gift store. And, um, and then finally it was an aquarist and then a full-time job opened up in, uh, life support.

[00:32:29] Um, as we were going through a, a, a pretty heavy expansion, um, about tripling our size. So wait, let me, let me, let me end up here for a second. So let's go back. So you went to new power school, right? I went to new power school. Okay. And what was it? Cause you know, I'm a, I'm an ex Navy guy and, and, uh, I was a surface, surface warfare guy, but what, what, what was your rate? I, I was, uh, when I left as a machinist mate to a nuclear.

[00:32:55] Okay. So you dealt with the new power propulsion system on, uh, the aircraft carrier. Exactly. And, and, and, and just happened to be during desert shield and desert storm. So it was a, an interesting time for everybody, but for, especially for us that were stuck in the middle of the red sea. That's right. I don't know if we've talked about this, but I too was in the Navy on a ship, uh, in the Persian Gulf during desert storm.

[00:33:24] So yeah, it was funny, coincidental, coincidental. So, so here you are, you're from Virginia beach originally. Is that right? No, I'm, I'm actually, uh, I'm, I'm an immigrant. So, um, I was born and raised in England. Um, came over as, as a, through my, through my stepdad being in the military.

[00:33:45] And then, uh, it was naturalized in about, oh, seventh or eighth grade. Um, so I, I joke around and I always tell people, well, my kids are first generation Americans and most people don't, don't get that. That means I'm an immigrant. Right. So, um, grew up in England, um, spent, spent some time in high school, American high school in England. Cause I knew I was coming back to the States eventually. So.

[00:34:09] Okay. Okay. So, so you're at Virginia, uh, Marine Science Center then, um, originally and how did you move into life support? And we went through, uh, we, we had a, uh, uh, an expansion going on. So we went from about 40 to a 120, 130,000 square foot facility and, um, biggest tank then was a 50,000 gallon tank.

[00:34:36] And of course expanding into, uh, 260,000 gallon tank and several other a hundred thousand gallon tanks. Um, they needed a. Life support person. So I was initially hired on as, uh, a life support technician. Um, one of one and a, and a, and a pretty sizable facility.

[00:34:57] And we soon found out that, well, we needed some more. I see we found out I, we needed some more life support technicians and, uh, after 240 hours of overtime in a six week period. So Sean, you're an aquarist turned life support operator, right?

[00:35:15] And so describe these exhibits, these habitats, what, what animals live there and, and talk a little bit about the processes and, and turnover rates and this sort of thing. Oh, gracious. Um, you're taking me back to my life support days. Um, um, so, um, largest exhibit is about 260,000 gallons. It's called the Norfolk Canyon exhibit.

[00:35:43] It's, uh, primarily, uh, Elasma Brank, um, habitat, um, designed to, to look like the Norfolk Canyon, which is about 60 miles off the coast of Virginia. It's a pretty deep Canyon. Um, and then, and then, uh, so that's the deepest ocean tank. And then you, you kind of follow the water back towards the shore and we have a sea turtle habitat, which is representative of, uh, the Chesapeake Bay light tower, which is, uh, guides all the ships into the Chesapeake Bay.

[00:36:13] That's a primarily sea turtle habitat. Okay. This is really interesting because the way you're telling the story of the aquarium, it starts offshore in a deep canyon and you move it towards shore, probably to Chesapeake Bay and estuaries.

[00:36:31] Is there, you could, you could tell the story from, um, the, the, what we call the fall zone, you know, just, just, just east of the mountains, um, and into the Piedmont and the marsh and the near shore environments. And then, you know, then progressing offshore. So you can look at it from both sides.

[00:36:51] Yeah. So, so what, what's your staff like at the aquarium? How, how many, how many people work for you and what exactly are you, are you in charge of?

[00:37:03] Geez. Um, it's, it's, it's changed over the years. Um, right now my position is vice president of facilities, life support and technology. Um, most of my time is, is spent, um, project management wise, um, master planning.

[00:37:24] And budget and, and then really spending a lot of time now looking for future capital. Um, what do you do or how do you deal with an aging building? You know, we're, we're approaching 50 years at some, in some parts of the building. So, and, and, and how many people, how many people work for you?

[00:37:43] Oh, I have, uh, about six or seven life support technicians. Um, three full time water quality staff, which includes a manager, a couple of part time water quality staff, uh, about four facilities and grounds people. Um, and, uh, at one point, uh, I've got, uh, contracted security. Um, so that's part of my, my oversight and, uh, what are you doing?

[00:38:13] I've contracted custodial and, um, I think that I, I, I did manage for a while the, uh, the static exhibit guys. So that was kind of interesting and fun, a lot of fun building exhibits. And, and Sean, I, I do a lot of capex planning myself. And when you, and I kind of look at it in two different ways. There's the, and you pointed this out.

[00:38:38] There's the, what I call capex infrastructure, or you've got to maintain and fix things, right. As you age through the facility. But then I have the new builds, right. The zoological attraction or exhibit or habitat that, uh, is going to be the next greatest thing. Right.

[00:39:00] So that's part of the master planning exercise. Correct. Correct. Correct. And, and we're working through that, um, right now with, with an aging building. Um, you know, we all know concrete and salt water and steel and rebar just are not good playmates. They don't work well together. And, and, and, but, but it is what it is. So, um, what we're working on now is looking at, um, the master planning.

[00:39:28] Um, and the, the thought right now, or the leading thought of the direction we're heading in is, is to essentially build a new facility. Um, and then we could move the existing collection into the new facility. And then, you know, that's a, that's a 10 year process. Let's just say when you talk design and construction and you got to have your fundraising piece in the beginning there.

[00:39:54] So there there's several layers in several years, but then it's, then it's, I guess for the next generation or the next Sean to decide, um, what do we do with the old building? Do we refurb it? Do we demo demolish it? Um, cause we currently have a couple of buildings, um, and, and, uh, about a half of it. And we're, uh, about a half of a mile of a nature trail between both facilities. So it's a unique layout in the, in the aquarium world. I think I've, I've been there.

[00:40:23] It's, it's a, it's a beautiful facility. I've seen Sean there. It was a long time ago, but, um, I seem to remember your describe your intake system, describe how, where you get water from and how, how you process it and how you use it. That, that is, I think, um, one of the more unique things about our facility is, uh, we are fortunate. Um, we're on a saltwater, um, tidal creek, essentially.

[00:40:49] Very little, very little runoff, very little fresh water that enters this tidal basin, tidal creek. So we draw our saltwater, um, into the facility. Um, we have four 15,000 gallon tanks that are underground and, um, and they're slated for different uses.

[00:41:08] But I'm just going to say that we call one, the raw water tank. So we bring, uh, bring the water in, um, at a pretty slow rate, about 70, 40 to 70 gallons a minute. Um, initially for the first five or eight years, we ran through sand filters. We quickly switched that out to a, to a drum filter, um, which works really well.

[00:41:31] So we're, we got a course filtration that tank then, um, recirculates on a, uh, a large protein skimmer. Um, and usually overnight we'll, we'll run through that, uh, through the protein skimmer. And then we will run it through a contact tower in the sand filter and transfer that water to one of the other three tanks.

[00:41:54] And at that point we are doing several things. We're monitoring the water. We're adjusting the salinity, sometimes the alkalinity, um, because we're using natural saltwater and the, the ozone contact process creates the, the, the hyperbromous acid and the, the brominated byproducts.

[00:42:17] And so we're carbon filtering it, biosulfur, diosulfate, and, and then basically getting it ready for the target aquarium, whether it's going to be 32 parts per thousand, 34. Um, but it is, it's a process. We, we generally run through about six times a week.

[00:42:39] So six, 15,000 gallon tanks a week. It's a two day process for getting a tank ready. So it's, it's time consuming. Um, it's tough when equipment breaks or, or when you're doing major rehab work on exhibits and you have to fill something up that takes. I want to, Sean, I want to follow up on something there, the tidal creek.

[00:43:01] And you mentioned salinity adjustment, but what, what does the tidal creek salinity run like seasonally? It's pretty consistent. Um, in the, the, I say 25 to 28, um, range. Um, I I've seen it as low as 11 and as high as 30.

[00:43:22] And, and I think it's, it's really due to Chesapeake Bay events. If you have a very large storm, um, on the Eastern seaboard, Northern east, Northeastern seaboard, that freshwater influx goes into the Chesapeake Bay. And it rolls right out of the mouth of the bay down, down to Virginia Beach. And you mentioned the brominated byproducts. Is there an ORP in that system?

[00:43:46] Um, there, there is, I'm not a, not the biggest fan of ORP. Quite honestly, it's, it's, it's a good trend indicator. Um, you know, in best case scenarios, you're plus or minus 50. So it's, the number is not reliable. Trends I think are, um, so we, we do, we, we actually test part of the final testing process is just testing the bromine and water.

[00:44:12] Cause that's going to give you an indication of number one, you test it and it's really high. You know, you've got good sterilization. And then when it's low, you know, your carbon thiosulfate has completed the job. Yeah. And basically that the total bromine test is identical to the total chlorine test. Exactly. To a DPD test. Right. Right. It's got all those synonyms, right? Yeah. So Kansas city aquarium, it's a unique design, a lot of drum filters.

[00:44:39] So I asked Sean about his drum filters and what the, what the mesh size is. I believe that's a 30 micron. Um, we we've, that, that's a fairly small, again, about 40 to 70 gallon a minute drum filters. It's pretty small, but it's, it's effective. Um, it's your course filtration, you know, pre-screening the water. And then, uh, with the protein skimmer on the backside of that recirculating, it does, it does a pretty awesome job.

[00:45:07] I would think in that title Creek system, the, the raw tank, you call it, you would get debris coming in. And so that 30 micron drum probably gets a lot of that course material out. Oh, it does. It, it rinses down pretty, pretty regularly, but in, in, in, you know, it's, it's effective. And then we have a series of different day, we call them day tanks, um, which are filled periodically that recirculate the water through the building.

[00:45:35] So, you know, you got a couple thousand gallons of water that's recirculating for the animal care team to use on the smaller habitats. The bigger habitats will, will, will, whatever day there's certain days in the, in the schedule that, okay. You know, you'll hear them on the radio waters onto the building and that lets the, the medium size, um, aquariums are available to get their water changes done.

[00:46:02] And when you increase your salinity or say it's 15 and you need it to be 30, uh, is there a formula you follow or is it instant ocean or what? We use, uh, Marine enterprises. Um, and, um, you know, we use super sacks and we, the, the, the, all the tanks are in ground.

[00:46:23] So we just kind of pick up the bag with a forklift and then you pull, pull the little rip cord and the kind of let it slowly over about 30 minutes or so, you know, drain into the tank and, and that all the tanks have aeration. And so that keeps the water circulating and it gets the salinity mixed in pretty well. Right.

[00:46:40] So then a typical LSS, you, you obviously have, have, you know, multiple LSS in, in your building or buildings, but the typical LSS, is it, is it sand filtration pumps, uh, protein skimmers, ozone contact, basically. The larger systems are primarily sand and protein skimmers.

[00:47:04] Um, some are, we have some systems that are sand filter with protein skimmers, post sand filter. Um, and then we have, uh, some other systems that are like 50% sand filter, 50% protein skimmer. Um, and then bio after that UV. Not, we don't use a lot of UV, um, especially on the large systems.

[00:47:29] So some of the, a lot of the smaller systems, the animal care team is responsible for those. There's there's, we, we use the fair amount, um, on the bigger systems we've put in some of the medium pressure lamps, the, the 400 watt, 800 watt, 1600 watt. Uh, these seem to do a pretty good job, you know, um, all those systems were, were dosing ozone, but in a very like, you know, 0.1 milligram per liter. Right into the, into the protein skimmers.

[00:47:58] So, or even, even smaller. Um, so it's not getting the huge dose, but, but it's enough to give you that micro flocculation and that, that clarity, um, when you're looking at the water. And then by the time the protein skimmer water blends back into the rest of the flow, you, you come right back down in, in any oxidant residual. Yeah, exactly. We never see, we never see any oxidant levels in our, in our aquariums.

[00:48:27] I mean, well, I won't say never because things break and you know, you, you can overdose the system, which has happened. Um, when, when you're, yeah, let's just say your ORP probes get isolated and you can, you continuously dose and then, you know, there's issues. And Joe, I'm going to pivot here because, uh, you know, I like to talk about the four, the pillars of life support and, and how we are not just water anymore.

[00:48:55] And since we have Sean and he's over facilities, Sean, what type of lighting systems do you employ in your habitats and how are they maintained? That's, that's, that's a good question.

[00:49:11] Um, it, and animal care primarily drives, uh, lighting decisions, um, which is sometimes, I mean, they know more about the animals and the needs of the animals from a lighting perspective, which is good there. But a lot of times they don't understand the, the electrical infrastructure of the facility. So there could be issues there on that side, but it, it generally works out pretty well.

[00:49:39] We've got, I mean, over the years of, I don't know, we've had a ton of different lighting systems. We've got Kessels, we've got old school halides, halogens, you know, a hundred, 150 watt LEDs and, and, uh, you know, big sports lighters on coral tanks. And there's a, there's a huge variety of, of lighting. I couldn't even begin to wrap my head around it a hundred percent.

[00:50:06] Obviously different facilities have different challenges, whether it's budgets or staffing or equipment replacement and, you know, intake water. So I asked Sean what, what his biggest challenge is. That that's a really good question. And, and, you know, it's, it's, I think like the things that would keep me up at night and right now with a,

[00:50:35] um, an aging building it's, it's the infrastructure piece, you know, um, you can't really predict with any accuracy when something's going to fail. Like we had, uh, uh, um, a pipe blow out the other day, you know, that's a, that's kind of a small failure, but it, it, it creates a lot of work. But I think about, you know, a large aquarium, like, you know, developing a significant crack, um, that, those are the things that really keep me up at night.

[00:51:06] Day to day challenges. I think it's, you know, it's finding time to get everything to fit everything in. Um, and, and of course, you know, they always tell you like, do the things you like least first. That's what they say when doing that, where they're teaching how to, to, to manage a division or a section. Um, but that's, that's hard sometimes, you know, it's the life support is fun and it's interesting.

[00:51:33] And there's like so many unique problems that come out of human created habitats and human maintained habitats that they're just so interesting and challenging to try and figure these things out. I think that's, it's putting that aside to work on the not fun things, you know, like, you know, like disciplinary problems with employees and management. Yeah. I hear you.

[00:52:01] Yeah. You know, you said you, you start with the things you least like most, right? So I, I kind of do the same thing because it gets us to happy hour faster. Right. And that's always, that's always a good goal. Well, I mean, you're, you're right, Sean, when you say you really don't know when things are going to break, but you certainly know as they get older, they're going to break more for sure. Yeah.

[00:52:27] That the, the, the, the chances, the probability increases with age. So very, very fun, really a great experience also this year. Good to see Sean. Good to see Chris. I mean, good to see so many people, really. Jeff last word. I think we're in Chattanooga yet next year, Joe. And then the thing is about this conference, there's three things that come to mind immediately.

[00:52:51] It's the, the vendors, which responds to the water loop and the processes of LSS and the education that goes on back and forth between the operators and the vendors. There's the workshops, dry workshops where you get to learn about equipment and sensors and how to calibrate sensors.

[00:53:14] And then there's the lectures where operators actually delivers talks about what they've learned in the recent times about LSS, the processes. It could be anything from, you know, a perlite defender type filter to a fractionator or protein skimmer. It could be a, you know, it could be a sand filter or different media like AFM.

[00:53:42] So all of that is covered at also, regardless of where it is in the country. And so I would just urge our listeners out there, if you haven't been to one yet, try to get there. It is a great group of people. We love to socialize for sure. But the education and the interaction and the networking and the curiosity that goes on there is unmatched.

[00:54:11] Well said. Curiosity is a very good term and stay tuned. We're not quite done with also yet. We spoke with a couple of other people that have some very interesting projects going on that we talked about at also. And we're going to do a show, especially about that coming up here in the, in the next couple of weeks. So thank you to Chris Carr and Sean Bourgeois. And thanks to Cloward H2O and Ardura for sponsoring the show.

[00:54:41] Thanks to Kansas City Aquarium. And thanks to also for a great conference. And thank you all for listening to Inflow. Be sure to subscribe, leave us a review. And don't forget, you can always stay connected with us at inflowlsspodcast.com.