Ep 43 - Clear Views, Complex Systems: The Role of Acrylic in Modern Aquariums

[00:00:05] Greetings all, Joe Arlotto here with Dr. Jeff Kefaber. Welcome to Inflow, the podcast where we discuss all things related to aquatic animal life support. This show is sponsored by TJP Engineering and MDM Pumps. You can learn more about our sponsors by clicking on the sponsors page at inflowlsspodcast.com.

[00:00:27] So, LSS encompasses a lot. For me, this is one of the things that makes LSS so interesting. Like our sponsors today, TJP and MDM, they might not be directly operating the LSS, but they are directly involved in the LSS. TJP as a designer, MDM as a pump supplier, but there are other industries or facets to an exhibit.

[00:00:57] TJP that are not directly related to LSS, but certainly they intersect with LSS on some level. It's sort of like, you know, they don't fall under the LSS scope, but inevitably the LSS operators and managers will need to provide input to ensure seamless integration. So let's call these LSS adjacent. Okay? So what say you, Dr. Jeff Kefaber?

[00:01:27] Joe, I view this, as you know, as a generalist. And I think about traditionally, it's been the water recirculation loop and all the processes associated with that as traditional LSS. But it's expanding to be lighting and HVAC and air quality, as well as what exists inside the habitat itself.

[00:01:53] Whether that's a pool coating, rock work, thematic elements, wave generation devices, or the acrylic and the sealant shoes around the acrylic windows. And so all of that has a vast interest in our LSS community. Yeah, I think of things like, remember that, um, the wave ball at Siwa and Abu Dhabi, you know, that was in the dolphin exhibit and the sea lion exhibit.

[00:02:21] And it, it, it, we didn't design it and we didn't really have a whole lot to do with actually installing it, but it affected our pools and our skimmers and the flow within the pool so much that we had to be involved in it. Right? That's right. You have to set those skimmer elevations just right. And I remember you were out there adjusting the, the weir plates to the orifice plates to just get that dialed in.

[00:02:50] So our guest today works with one of these LSS adjacent industries, Zach Barron from American Sealants Inc. Welcome to Inflow. Hey, thank you guys for having me. And you can just say ASI. That's more how we're known in the industry. So. Yeah, yeah, no, I, I would, I know you as ASI, but I want everyone to know that's what it stands for American Sealants Inc.

[00:03:15] And, and so you do, you work exclusively, not exclusively, but you work mainly with exhibit, underwater exhibit, or even, or even terrestrial exhibit, acrylic and glass, which of course, LSS operators, we see this on a daily basis. And this is going to be interesting to hear how we, as LSS folks can learn more about this.

[00:03:40] So, so Zach, where are you from? Where'd you grow up and how did you make your way into the LSS world? Yeah, again, thank you guys for having me. So I grew up in California and Colorado and ASI is based out of Grand Junction, Colorado, which is where I went to school. And I just kind of got lucky. A friend of mine was working on a project down in Mexico and was struggling because he didn't speak Spanish and I speak Spanish.

[00:04:07] So I said, Oh, I could come help you out. And I just really fell in love with it. You know, it's a, it's a very unique trade and a very niche industry, obviously that we're all in. And so I got lucky there. You know, I mentioned, I grew up some in California and when I was a kid back in the eighties, my mom used to actually take me. She worked for us West. It was a phone company in California.

[00:04:33] And if she didn't have childcare, she would pack me a sack lunch and drop me off at Monterey Aquarium. And, you know, I loved aquariums since I was a kid. The, the people there kind of adopted me as their little mascot boy. And I actually had the pleasure of going back and working at Monterey Aquarium. We did some polishing for them and it was full circle moment. I got kind of emotional, you know, seeing the bench where I used to sit and eat lunch in front of the kelp forest. It was really cool.

[00:05:01] That is cool. We've had various guests on the show that work for Monterey Bay and there's been so many changes there over the years. So it must be kind of cool for you to see it now. Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was incredible. Like I said, a real full circle moment. So, I mean, I've always loved aquarium since I was a kid and being able to, to do this and on such a large scale is it's really neat.

[00:05:26] So describe ASI. I mean, what, what does ASI provide? What do you do? So ASI we've, we've been around in the industry for 22 years. We're very specialized acrylic and glass supply supplier installer. We do convert obviously public aquariums, zoo exhibits.

[00:05:51] And then we got into the master pool builders guild and we started doing some kind of high end pools. We also do some of our other specialties is waterproofing and coatings. We do a lot of consulting and inspections. We do leak repair on exhibits, not just around the acrylic, you know, we do concrete crack injection.

[00:06:14] So if you've got a back wall of a tank that's leaking, we can come in and solve those problems too. Yeah. And Zach, let me back up for a minute on the acrylic itself. And I want to get to the leaks and all of that, but you know, our architect friends to design acrylic or glass windows.

[00:06:37] And can you describe a little bit about the intricacies around the geometries that you're seeing in the industry today? Curvatures, cylinders, wavy acrylic versus just a flat panel. Yeah, sure. So I've been with ASI for, this is my 13th year.

[00:07:00] So when I started, the majority of what you had was, was rectangles or radius panels, which is just a rectangle with a radius and cylinders. Those were the most common things that you had. You know, sometimes you'd get a weird shape like a trapezoid or something like that. But the advantage of acrylic over glass is that it's fully moldable.

[00:07:24] You know, recently I did the expansion at Seattle Aquarium and we installed a 38,000 pound piece of acrylic that was shaped like a pistachio shell. So from the viewer side, it's concave. So it gives you this big open view of the exhibit, which is really neat. Lots of non-symmetrical radiuses in that building. Also conference was just at the Kansas City Zoo. There was some unique acrylic there.

[00:07:53] We had a, like a, I call it like a martini glass or an inverted cone. That's a moray eel exhibit. And, you know, that was a challenge to install because the building was built around it. But that's the main, one of the main features of acrylic that separates it from glass is its ability to be molded into different shapes. And so how does it work for you? So you are the install. Okay, let's say we're talking about a new exhibit, right?

[00:08:21] And they say we want this type of, this piece of acrylic that's shaped this way. Now, you don't actually form it and make it, but you install it, correct? So the fabricator or the manufacturers of acrylic, you know, we work with all of the manufacturers. Reynolds Polymer Technologies here in the United States. AAT is here in the United States, but they're based out of Australia.

[00:08:48] You got Nipura in Japan and then Klax Italia. So those are the really the big ones. And so generally what ends up happening is they'll manufacture and shape the acrylic to the architect's design. And then they'll hire us to come and install the panels on site. And so do you have any sort of input in the design process?

[00:09:13] Because you have to ensure that you can actually install it, that it can be structurally sound. So you have to know what's going in well before it goes in, correct? Yeah. I mean, we would like to, we would always like to be more involved earlier on the front end in different ways. You know, an example would be like I set some windows years ago that were shaped kind of like a Pringles potato chip.

[00:09:39] So it was a circular panel, but it also had a radius on it. So that was more expensive for Reynolds to manufacture. It happened to be Reynolds manufacturing those windows. It was harder for the concrete guys to make that shape, you know, that shape out of concrete and form it. And it was harder for me to pick it and set it where they could have just had that same effect if they would have done a radius window and had the reveal be round on the outside.

[00:10:09] So we like to help out with stuff like that. You mentioned a good point there, Zach, and that is the coordination that is required between the architect, the manufacturer, the structural engineer working on the concrete forms. And you guys as the installer, correct? Yeah, there's a lot that goes into it.

[00:10:30] And we're fortunate now because like many things, not just in our industry, but across, you know, manufacturing and construction, there's now dedicated acrylic material science engineers. You know, it used to be you just had a structural engineer who kind of got into acrylic, where now you have these guys that acrylic is their product. So they ensure that the windows are going to be strong enough based on the water load.

[00:10:58] Is it a dynamic water load like a wave pool or a static water load? You know, they determine the bearing surface, how much support it needs. And then we ensure that all those things are met in the field. Okay, so describe, so you work with glass too as well. So describe why, yeah, describe why a zoo or aquarium might choose glass versus acrylic.

[00:11:25] What are the differences and what are the pros and cons? Acrylic is an extremely durable product, but it also scratches very easily. So sometimes you have species of animals, bears, primates, where, you know, they're going to scratch up the windows. So glass is, it's less prone to scratching, not that it won't. So that's a determining factor is the species of the animals.

[00:11:52] You know, the otters love to, just by their nature, they're playful. They love to scratch the acrylic at the water line. The good thing about acrylic is it can be repaired easily. Glass can also be polished, but it's a much more labor-intensive process. And the other benefit of acrylic is you can have a, well, as glass, as it gets thicker, you start to lose clarity because of the inner layers,

[00:12:20] because all glass panels laminated together to get your desired thickness. So as you laminate those panels together, you start to lose clarity. Whereas acrylic, you know, you can go, a 26-inch panel will be just as clear for your viewing as a one-inch thick panel. And to that point, Zach, understanding the difference between glass and acrylic with respect to the optical view that you get and the quality of the view, underwater view.

[00:12:50] What about water temperature and insulation? Acrylic is a better insulator, right? Yeah, that's a great, great question. So acrylic doesn't have as much of the thermal transfer as glass does. So that's why if you go to a facility and they have a cold water exhibit, like a peniped exhibit or penguins or polar bear, you don't see that condensation on the exterior surface because that thermal transfer isn't as much.

[00:13:20] Whereas glass will transfer that cold water and you can get that effect of condensation on the exterior. And glass can break and acrylic can't. Is that right? Yeah, I mean, we, as far as, acrylic is about 17 times stronger than glass and it weighs about half as much.

[00:13:41] So like the tensile strength of glass hangs around 8,000 to 11,000, whereas acrylic is around 12,000 to 18,000. So it's a lot stronger and it's less prone to be broken. And there's an otter at New York Aquarium got a hold of a piece of rock work and hit the window and shattered that inner laminate. So then that has to be replaced. That can't be repaired.

[00:14:07] And Zach, those numbers you just threw out there, that's PSI, correct? Correct. Yeah. So, so let's see. So, so glass can be broken, obviously, and it's heavier. So, so when you, so structurally, and is there a difference in how you seal an acrylic panel versus a, a glass panel?

[00:14:35] Or is there a difference in how it actually has to be supported? In other words, the structure itself and the, and everything surrounding the piece. Is that different for you? Yeah, that's a great question. So because of the laminate layers that I was mentioning earlier, those can't be exposed to the elements. So I'm sure we've all been to a facility where you see the glass window and it has that white ghosting in it. That's because water got to the laminate.

[00:15:04] So glass has to be four-sided support or have, it can be three-sided support, but it has to have a top cap to prevent those, those, the laminate layer from getting wet. As far as like the sealing process with the acrylic, you have a chamfer. So you kind of build, basically you have the chemical adhesion of the, the Dow 795, but you're also building a mechanical plug because you're creating that triangle shape.

[00:15:32] So you're creating a mechanical plug, which I've argued about with this, with a lot of engineers. Whereas with the glass, you still have that similar chamfer and the similar backing, but you have to use a primer that Dow Corning has that's for glass and steel. So it gets that chemical adhesion better. Okay. That makes sense because, because acrylic is, is a different substance basically, and you can form it better, right?

[00:16:01] So you can form that chamfer better than you can with glass. Is that, is that right? Yeah. And the way you want, you know, the way you approach that and then, and you give it a mechanical bite, you know, you can sand the edges to get a mechanical bite. And yeah, you create that, that plug and that works in my favor. Of course, everything's backed, you know, and that's the inner workings of the seals.

[00:16:23] And Jack, in your experience, I think about four years ago, I was in Abu Dhabi sitting at my desk in my office and the Germany cylindrical tank failed. I don't know if you remember this story. Oh yeah. And the entire collection of animals were lost and, and it was catastrophic failure. So can you speak to what would cause with acrylic or glass catastrophic failure?

[00:16:54] Yeah. I've listened to several of your podcasts and Mike Bezik is a good friend of mine. And he talked about how, you know, if a queris was having a bad day, they might miss not feed an animal and one animal dies. And if LSS guy's having a bad day, they could lose an entire system. As far as the Berlin thing went, I think it was a, um, uh, a mixture of unfortunate circumstances that led to that failure.

[00:17:23] It was old cylinder and old technology. It was exposed to the elements. They had a cold snap. And I think there was a lot of contributing factors. One thing that we tell people is acrylic is like, it's like a living thing. You need to have it inspected by a professional who knows what they're looking for and is able to let you know the health of that living system. Whether it's be the seals or the acrylic itself.

[00:17:53] Germany was a terrible thing. Unfortunately, nobody was hurt. But like you said, uh, the whole collection was lost. And, you know, Reynolds went out there. Engineers went out there, investigated that. And there was not one direct cause is what I'm getting at. But when that happened, my phone was blowing up. Oh, my goodness. Oh, I bet. Oh, I bet. That was a, that was a significant thing in the, in the acrylic world, in the aquarium acrylic world, right? Absolutely.

[00:18:23] In the whole industry, you know, and then there's a lot of people that after that, you know, it's unfortunate that it takes something like that happening for people. You know, a lot of places don't budget for maintenance and they don't budget for inspection. So it's unfortunate that it takes something like that happening for places to want to get their acrylic inspected. Yeah, Zach, I'm thinking about environmental factors, right?

[00:18:46] And so it, as acrylic ages over time and evolves, as a chemist, I think about the molecular structure changing. And then if you stress it out with a different environmental scenario, temperature, it becomes more compromised, right? Yeah, absolutely. So acrylic is actually, it's polymethyl methyl acrylate.

[00:19:12] And it was really, originally it was developed for aviation and avionics or like windows on airplanes and, and cockpits for like fighter planes, stuff like that. Because of its durability and it's less likely to shatter. So it's, but it also has thermal expansion. So it, it breathes out when it's hot and it breathes in when it's cold as a metaphor.

[00:19:40] So when all of that is figured in with Reynolds or AAT or NAPURA, they figure all that into the, the engineering of the panel. And that goes back to, you know, the depth and how much water it's going to be holding back, what the weight's going to be, how much it can deflect safely, which is what they're looking for. So if you've got wild temperature swings, that's going to change the thickness of your acrylic. That's going to change what can be done with it.

[00:20:09] And that's directly related to the arc length. You know, we can get into the formulas and stuff, but we don't want people's eyes blazing over from mass on a podcast, you know? So that's right. Just to follow up real quick on a terrestrial zoo, a zoological exhibit, say lions, hyenas, whatever. And we've got acrylic panels sitting out in the sun in Tampa, let's say.

[00:20:38] And it goes through this, these cold spells, hot stress. Do you consider different design parameters in an air environment versus a water environment? Absolutely. That's a great question. Because, you know, the water, we talked about not having a thermal transfer, but the water does help temper out and keep that acrylic at an even temperature.

[00:21:05] So, like I said, it's directly related to the arc length. Again, at Kansas City, they have a, it's kind of a pill-shaped tank. And I might be off. I installed it, but that was several years ago. But I want to say it had like a 980-inch arc length. So the amount that window can grow and shrink is a lot. So when you're in an environment like that, then what would change is the gap sizes around the window.

[00:21:34] So you might allow a little bit bigger gap for that window to breathe out and breathe in, if that makes sense. And again, all of that is determined by engineers. And they kind of dictate to me what they want to see. And they're involved through the whole process. When we install and then I send them the numbers and they run their calculations and say, yeah, you're good. Or, hey, we'd like to see a little bit more gapping here. Can you even this out a little bit?

[00:22:03] So it's all very, very coordinated. Okay, so this is a good background on installation, new install. But for a typical LSS operator, right, I think we deal with, number one, leaks. We see a leak sometimes on the outside of the exhibit. So we're going to call you. We might see caulking being ripped off by the otters.

[00:22:31] And so, or possibly even losing water in an exhibit, trying to figure out where the water's going. Anyway, so what you do in terms of a facility calling you saying, Zach, come on out here. We need you. What are some of the scenarios that you see out there in terms of why you go out to check and work on someone's acrylic? Yeah, that's a great question.

[00:23:01] You know, everybody, we've all seen leaks around windows. My boss, Jerry Smith, he's been in this industry a long time, I believe about 35 years. And he's seen everything. And I've seen almost everything. You know, there's a few determining factors. So I teach the acrylic care workshops at the ALSO conference. And one of the things that I tell people in that workshop is, you know, Jerry likes to joke.

[00:23:29] He says we use fish food flavored silicone. But keeping your seals clean around the window. Because you've got some, I call them trouble species. Tangs are notorious. Parrot fish, triggers, puffer fish. They're all silicone eaters. But they don't want to eat the silicone. They want to eat the little buildup that gets on there. And then they eat the silicone by default. So you see a lot of leaks like that.

[00:23:56] It's pretty common to see cracks in concrete. Because over time, concrete gets hard and it cracks. So we see a lot of that. Which, you know, I just had my buddy at Columbus Zoo reached out. And, you know, they had a leak. I tried to give him a couple of pointers. And said, hey, try this. And he called me back and said, yeah, this didn't work out. So we're going to need to get you guys out here. So we're sending a team out.

[00:24:25] And they'll get in. They'll assess. They'll dye test. And then once we determine where the leak's at, then we'll repair it. Yeah, dye testing is important, by the way. And what are some of the products, Zach, that you recommend for repairing leaks, injecting cracks, sealing deaeration towers, whatever the case might be? Yeah.

[00:24:52] Obviously, Dow 795 is kind of the industry standard. It's in every aquarium all over the world. Every LSS room, you got a little basket or a drawer that has some $7.95 rattling around in there, you know. Everywhere. And it's a good product. As far as, like, for crack injection stuff, you know, the barrier of entry for stuff like that is a little bit high.

[00:25:19] Because the machines to the injection pump machine is pretty expensive. But we work with Seal Boss. They're an American company out of California. And we do a lot of work with their products. So let's take a step back. I like to get down to the basics here. When you say dye testing, what does that mean? What exactly are you doing? Yeah.

[00:25:47] So, you know, it's funny because a lot of times we'll get called for, like, smaller nuisance leaks. Or while we're on site doing maintenance for people or, you know, they'll say, hey, can you come check out this little leak that we get? And again, a lot of leaks, back to the thermal expansion and contraction of acrylic, a lot of leaks will appear in the wintertime. Because the acrylic's shrinking up a little bit. But for us, it's actually easier if you have a fast leak.

[00:26:15] Because it's much easier to identify. So when we're dye testing, you know, you can go to Leslie's Pool Supply. They sell pre-made little syringes with a tube that have dye in it. And they're everywhere. So you're going along. You're looking for that dye to pull in and show itself in the water that's developing on the other side.

[00:26:36] So when I say a fast leak, you know, if it's squirting out like a water fountain and I put that dye around and it pulls in and then I see it on the other side right away, then boom, I know what I'm looking for, you know. On a slow leak, it's like, I think we got it. That's the thing. The leak may show up on the dry side in the bottom left corner, but it may be just finding the path of least resistance to that area. Yeah. And we just had this happen yesterday.

[00:27:06] A dye test we did on the wet side. The diver actually squirts the dye in the area where the leak, where we suspect the leak is. And we just see the dye get drawn in to that leak. And we never saw it on the dry side. And that's what you're looking for. And then once you identify that, then, you know, you can smooth some 795 over it. You know, it's a reasonable fix.

[00:27:33] So sometimes you can fix it by finding the leak and covering it. But sometimes you have to actually dig out some of the caulk and get into where the acrylic is actually meeting up with the structure. Right. Can you do that underwater? Yeah. So Jerry would kill me if I got too deep into it.

[00:27:56] But we have a really cool method that we've developed where we can repair silicone underwater. We can replace the whole seal underwater, basically. And we're working on getting it patented. The tricky thing is patenting a process is difficult. But we've proven it. You know, we've developed it and proven it in multiple different locations.

[00:28:21] And it's a super effective way of fixing leaks long term. And Zach is, without getting into the proprietary nature of the IP here, but is it something? Is it a product just applied in a different fashion? Like you said, the process. So you've come up with a better way to do it? Don't get Zach in trouble. I'm not getting into it. Don't get him in trouble now. I'm not getting him in trouble with Jerry.

[00:28:52] I know Jerry. And I'm telling you, he's going to be pissed. He will kill me. No, you know, I've been with him for a long time. And he trusts me a lot. Obviously, trust me to be on here. But yeah, I mean, without getting too much into it, it is a different product and a different process. You know, it used to be that you would kind of find the leak and then kind of scuff up the area and then try to apply some silicone over the top.

[00:29:17] And I've done this so many times where you'll have like a, I'll go in and I'll fix that, put some 795, like black 795 over the spot to fix the leak. And then, you know, I go up, drop the tube up and come back down. And I'll have a tang with a little mustache and goatee of black 795 where they already went and started eating it. But yeah, I mean, I think it's really going to be an industry changer once we can really get it out.

[00:29:44] I mean, we've done it multiple places now and it's super effective. So this is good advice for LSS operators who are sometimes the people who dive in the exhibit and clean it. So keep your edges of your acrylic, the caulking area, keep that clean because that can help keep the fish from attacking your caulking there.

[00:30:10] So you can fix leaks in the acrylic attachments. You can fix leaks in the concrete itself. How about cleaning or polishing the acrylic? Is this something that you do also? And how often do you do that? Yeah, we do polishing. Like I said, part of the acrylic care workshop that I teach at the ALSO conference is on polishing.

[00:30:40] So again, the barrier of entry for polishing is it's, you know, it's a little bit more expensive and a lot more time consuming. And I always tell people in the workshop, if you become the best polisher at your facility, you will have to do your job and polish. So keep that in mind before, you know, you've already got your time being spent doing all the things that you need to do to maintain your water quality and keep the animals alive. Do you really want to add polishing to that?

[00:31:08] So that's when I recommend people call us so we can polish underwater. The only exhibits that we really don't or won't polish underwater is live corals. They're just too sensitive. Sure. And we, you can't keep the particulates out enough to prevent losing those. And nobody wants to do that. As far as frequency, it kind of depends on the species that you have.

[00:31:34] Sand tigers are notorious, you know, because their teeth protrude out and they get a little snippy and thrash up against the acrylic. I've seen them even take big chunks out of the acrylic. Turtles are pretty notorious just from doing flybys. I get otters, their little claws. So frequency kind of depends on what species you have in the tank and what your expectation of the acrylic should be. Yeah.

[00:32:01] And not just the wet side, the wet species, but also the terrestrial animals that will scratch it up on their side of the habitat. But we, I have seen on the guest or visitor side of the habitat, a lot of damage that happens over the years. Oh, yeah. You take care of that too, right? Oh, yeah. Sometimes people are the worst animals on the acrylic.

[00:32:27] You know, they're carving their name or their Instagram handle or I've seen that. You know, this is a clean show, so I can't say all the things that I've seen people put on the dry side. But, yeah, we do dry side polishing as well. It's a different process. So all of it is micron pads.

[00:32:49] So you basically step down your abrasives to a finer, finer, finer pad and then eventually a final polish. But, again, it's time consuming. And I tell people, you know, I had a friend of mine, we sell a polishing kit. And I'm not on here trying to sell people stuff. But we sell a polishing kit and it's everything you'd need to polish for yourself in-house for smaller stuff.

[00:33:15] And I had a friend of mine, he reached out and he said, hey, buddy, I blocked out like four hours of my day tomorrow and I'm going to polish this little window. Would you be available if I have any questions or I need any pointers? And I'm like, yeah, get after it, buddy, and I'll be available. If you need me, give me a shout. And I'm going to be able to polish this 8x10 window or, you know, whatever it was, 6x10 window.

[00:33:45] Because he, everybody sees us show up and polish and they're like, man, that looks easy. But you don't see all the times where we made mistakes and we had to start completely over. You know, it's a 10,000 hours idea. You know, I've spent so much time on acrylic that now we make it look easy. So now you talk about acrylic losing its clearness because people, you know, rub up against it. An animal scratches it.

[00:34:14] A turtle knocks into it. But will acrylic lose clearness just naturally over time or based on sun or weather? Or another thing I want you to talk about is, is there a difference between fresh water and salt water when it comes to acrylic? No. As far as acrylic is concerned, fresh water, salt water, no water, it's all fine. Nowadays, so there's four generations of acrylic.

[00:34:40] And so like some of the older stuff, like the real old SeaWorld stuff, like I pulled a window from San Diego that was from 82. And I know that because they etched the date of when it was manufactured down along the edge of the acrylic. And we pulled that window out and the UV stabilization that they had back then wasn't fully developed.

[00:35:08] And Dr. Jeff, as a chemist, you can understand this. But as the, as the acrylic technology has changed, they've really got the UV stabilizers that they added, add to it. It's dialed. So the sunlight doesn't affect it, doesn't cause that yellowing that you see from some of the older stuff. Like you moving forward, the acrylic won't do that.

[00:35:32] Yeah, these are, these are UV generated free radical reactions that occur inside the panel. And the old formulations didn't have resistance to that or to quench that reaction. And so many generations later, we've gotten better at it.

[00:35:51] Zach, can you comment, my mind shifting to back to a new exhibit or maybe even one that is under rehab where you had to drain the pool, repair or reinstall acrylic. Can you comment on the, when you fill it back up with water, is there a rate at which you would recommend you do that?

[00:36:15] And, and this is, this is very good question, Dr. Jeff, because I think this is one of the, you know, the LSS adjacency of acrylic as an LSS operator. This is something that you definitely need to know. You have to, you have to work with the acrylic folks. When you fill that system, you got to coordinate with them how you fill it. And Zach is going to tell us why right now. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:36:43] It's a great question and it's something that we, we go over with the general contractors. We go over with the commissioning team. We go over with the LSS team. It's extremely important. So on a new build or on draining, going either way, if you're draining or if you're filling, you don't want to exceed about a foot an hour.

[00:37:05] Now, do you have to be there with a stopwatch, making sure it's exactly 12 inches to the, to the line and exactly 60 minutes? No. But what we're trying to avoid is you're trying to avoid shocking that acrylic and shocking that system by introducing, you know, 8.3 pounds a gallon, you know, 300,000 gallons. You're putting 2.4 million and change pounds of water in there and it wants out.

[00:37:32] So either way, draining or filling, you don't want to go more than a foot an hour. Now that ties into like people doing backwashes and stuff. As long, you know, as long as you're keeping the majority of the water in the tank and you're just doing a little backwash, it's not going to be a problem. But as you're draining the tank, there's also concerns about, you know, making sure that the window stays in place.

[00:37:57] You know, obviously like a radius that's concave from the public side, that's not, just due to its geometry, it's not going to want to fall out. But if you've got a flat panel or a panel that's even laid back at an angle, you want to make sure if you're draining the tank, that's supported before you start draining the tank. Yeah, it makes sense.

[00:38:17] So there's a shocking factor to it because if you do it too quickly, you can shock it and the acrylic can actually expand or contract too fast, right? But then also there's a pressure if you're pressurizing the bottom of it and not the top, it can actually shift the acrylic. Is that true? Yeah. I mean, there's, you know, there's a lot of factors. When I say shocking it, it's like you don't want to add all that pressure all at once.

[00:38:46] And of course, you know, we're always on deadlines. We're always on these tough deadlines. The GC doesn't want to hear about your nitrate cycle and how you've got to acclimate the water. They want water in it right now and they want, you know, because that adds a huge amount of time to the overall timeline of a project. So that's one of the things that we really have to push back on on projects is like, hey, I understand that you're on a strict timeline, but we don't want to overdo this now at the point that we're at.

[00:39:16] We want to take it nice and slow, fill it up, monitor everything as we're going. And then that also can give you, if there is a problem, like let's say there's a leak. If you're filling at a foot an hour and all of a sudden you see a leak happen somewhere, well, now you have a range of where that leak is at. So you're not searching the whole tank for it. You now know it's around six foot deep. It starts leaking over here out of the wall. So it also gives you like some hints like that. Good point.

[00:39:44] This is all great stuff because right now, as I speak today, we're cycling the nitrogen cycle on a shark habitat in San Diego. And part of that whole process was the refill of a 30 year old system. And so we had to test the acrylic, all the seals, all of that as we're filling. But we're under the gun and the pressure because we want to move the sharks back in, right?

[00:40:15] So you have to acclimate, as you said, Zach, and establish that water quality to make sure those animals can adapt. So you mentioned a couple of times, Zach, the ALSO conference. So you go to the ALSO conference. You teach about acrylic in a workshop. So what do you teach exactly? And what kind of information are you looking to give the operators? That's an excellent question.

[00:40:44] So, you know, I explained to them, like I said, about the polishing. You don't want to be the best polisher at your facility. And I'm kind of joking. But, you know, I tell them that there's... I classify polishing and scratches, if you will, in kind of like three tiers. Like the basic is like light swirls and light scratching from maybe using terry towels instead of microfibers.

[00:41:12] Or wiping dust off without wetting the window down first. So that's like the super light kind of superficial stuff. And that's... I tell people that's where... That's your wheelhouse for polishing. Like you can get some cutting compound and a final polish. Get, you know, yellow and a white buffing pad. There's a lot of great... Now they're making these battery powered variable speed polishers that are sweet. And the barrier of entry to get into that is not too expensive.

[00:41:41] You don't have to ask for a big budget. You know, some of our polishers cost nearly $2,000 a piece. And so how many of those does your facility have budgeted? The second tier of scratching is like a level where you can really catch it with your fingernail. So we had an issue on a new construction build where a guy took a piece of that Pink Panther foam. And he's like... He was trying to cut it.

[00:42:08] And he said, oh man, I can put it up against this nice flat acrylic window and cut this foam. So we had like a five foot long scratch from a razor knife. So that was where you could catch your fingernail with it, you know? Sure. In order to polish something like that out, you end up... You can't just polish in that localized area because you'll cause the distortion. So you have to feather that out several feet on either side to keep the plane flat.

[00:42:36] So it's related to Snell's Law and the way light refracts through materials. And if you create that distortion, then you get that funhouse mirror effect when the fish went by. You know, so that's kind of where you need to be like thinking about calling us. And then there's like tier three where a welder dropped a spud wrench out of a man basket onto the top of the tunnel. And it took a big chip out. Now we're talking...

[00:43:05] And that's actually happened. That's why I use that as an example. Now we're talking... It took me, I think, eight days to fix that from one drop because it was a tunnel. So I had to go over the tunnel both directions, you know, back laterally and over the radius to cut that out and feather that out. Hey, Zach, over the last decade, I've been asked a lot about, can't you just have a robot do it underwater? And then polish the acrylic and clean the algae?

[00:43:35] And we don't have all this dive labor. And what do you know about the state of that technology, especially in saltwater? And how are you better than a robot, Zach? Come on. I'm a lot more fun to interact with, I would think. I don't know if they've got robots that'll drink a beer with you after a good day diving yet. And his job title is Intergalactic Superintendent.

[00:44:01] As far as I know, I've worked on most of the aquariums in this galaxy and the others. So until I'm proven different. No, you know, it's funny you mentioned that because we actually... Jerry was at a conference a few years ago and met a guy who had these cleaning robots, these underwater cleaning robots. And I want to say he was out of Norway. And so we got one.

[00:44:28] And at first I thought, man, this is really cool. I could see applications like in a peniped exhibit where the water's really cold and, you know, the amount of time a human can spend in there, even in a dry suit. We know dry suits aren't impervious. I was like, man, this could be really cool, you know? The problem was the tech wasn't fully there and Bluetooth doesn't work through water.

[00:44:55] So you can't have like a Bluetooth connection from the controller. So the robot that we brought over and we were trying to demo here in the U.S. and offer to facilities was a remote-controlled robot. So you'd dangle it down, you'd hit the pump, it would suction itself to the window and it had a little cleaning bar on the front of it. And I was super excited about it and I was taking it around, showing it off to people.

[00:45:19] And the problem is, you know, when you get that like calcified algae on the inside where it's a little bit harder than the regular algae, it won't get that off. You know, it was cool for going around and it was kind of a cool novelty, but I don't know if the tech's there yet. And I don't think people want to spend a ton of money on a robot unless it can pay for itself somehow.

[00:45:45] Yeah, that's interesting. I had not heard about that, but it's something to certainly think about. So we're going to start to wrap this up. So first of all, I know that, Zach, you've developed like a list of chemicals that you can use or not to use with the cleaning of acrylic, right? You have a list up there. I think I saw it also, right?

[00:46:13] Yeah. So we've compiled a list of basically chemicals that acrylic is resistant to, is semi-resistant to, and what acrylic has no resistancy. I tell people when they come to the acrylic workshop there, and also I get their email and I send it to them in like a little acrylic care guide. I tell them, laminate that, keep it in your LSS room, keep it in your janitorial closet.

[00:46:40] And, you know, cause a lot of places have like a third party company that comes in and cleans the acrylic and maybe they're, and they mean well, but maybe they're using like a automotive glass cleaner. And that's going to cause crazing, which we, we didn't even get into crazing, but you know, that it can come to a point where that makes your window beyond repair. It's important to not use chemicals, like even things that you think are natural, like goo gone. It says it's orange acid is not good for acrylic.

[00:47:09] I think there's the, uh, it's naphtha or there's a chemical in there that's not good or simple green. You know, you think it's natural, it's biodegradable, but there's chemical in there that's not good for acrylic. So there's, it's just kind of a quick, you know, it's really easy to read. It's an, you can look at it real quick, look at the back of the can or bottle of whatever product you got and just make sure that you're not putting something on that's going to damage your acrylic, you know?

[00:47:38] So we're, we're going to get that list from you and we're going to get it on our website. If that's okay with you to share with, with our listeners and they can take a look at this list and they can treat their acrylic nicely. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I think that would be fine. You know? Yeah. I mean, I don't see, uh, any reason why that information shouldn't be out there. I agree. So let's, let's wrap this up and, and, you know, we always end by asking the same question.

[00:48:04] And that is if someone who were starting out in the LSS world today and specifically maybe starting out in the acrylic world, you know, the, the world that you're in, what would your advice be to someone to get started?

[00:48:47] Man. Like when you're in an industry, I would say make allies, not enemies. You're going to see those people at a conference and ask questions. Like when I got into this, I did not know anything about acrylic.

[00:49:00] And now I'm considered a subject matter expert on, on aquarium construction, you know, and it took me time to do that. But I asked people questions, I was humble enough to know what I didn't know. And, you know, being around LSS folk and being in the back of house areas, because that's who we usually work with.

[00:49:20] I've had the pleasure of getting to learn from them about, hey, I'm fixing this degas tower. How does that how does the deaeration tower work? Or, hey, I'm fixing the acrylic cone on your, your protein skimmer. So tell me how that works. And so I've gotten to get like a elementary school education from all these great minds in the LSS industry.

[00:49:44] And I actually tested this year for LSS one and water quality one, and I passed both. I'm pretty proud of myself for that. But that's because I developed friends and people that I could lean on and ask those questions. So what I would say is be open to learn, you know, be open to ask the questions of people. And don't pretend like you know something that you don't, because you could kill an entire system or an entire habitat. We don't want that.

[00:50:12] Great advice. And this is coming from a guy who's in an LSS adjacent industry, right? And the guy's still taking, you know, Zach, you're still taking the LSS operator and water quality one, and you're trying to learn about your adjacent industry. And I think it's great. Dr. Jeff, last word.

[00:50:34] I think about what Zach has done here. And I'd say that LSS is getting blurry for me. And when I say blurry, it's not just water recirculation and filtration anymore. It's all of these other adjacent things that LSS operators have to be aware of. And I think Zach just underscored that point best.

[00:51:01] Well, thanks, Zach. I appreciate it. And you know, if things are blurry for you, Dr. Jeff, you should call Zach and he can polish stuff. You know what I mean? I like to save my glasses. Okay. Thank you, Zach. It was really, really great to talk to you. Hey, thank you guys. I really appreciate what you're doing and keep up the great podcast. It gives me something to listen to while I'm polishing for hours and hours on end. Thanks, Zach.

[00:51:26] I love it. I love it. Thank you to Zach Barron from ASI and thanks to MDM and TJP for sponsoring the show. And thank you all for listening to Inflow. Be sure to subscribe and leave us a review. And don't forget, you can always stay connected with us at inflowlsspodcast.com.